v0.10 - Poll - Perception of existing character enjoyment

[Polare]

As someone who has been closely involved in the rules changes from the beginning, here's my personal opinions (nothing official in here folks!) on my own characters. Take it or leave it as you wish, as it pretty strongly disagrees with the "conventional wisdom" on these forums.

Celestial Scholar (level 45ish, tons of "stuff") -
Would stay the same. Wand damage is likely to go down by about 65% (preliminary estimates are going from throwing for 20s down to throwing for 7s, maybe 8s) with about the same number of packets. I love the idea of being able to memorize down - IMO that's the single biggest change for casters. In playtests, meditate has shown to be much more useful than expected for this character - I have pretty good aim, but Meditate as an option is really nice.

Rogue (level 35ish, moderate amounts of "stuff") -
This character is focused almost exclusively on straight backstabs and dodges with almost nothing else, just constant damage out the wazoo. That would definitely change in 2.0. I'd probably go down from swinging 25s from behind to about 10s to 12s (bursting to 20s in big fights), which is still excellent compared to the 2.0 monster health downgrade. I'd be excited at the idea of half damage from Evade, as it makes Slays and the like survivable (currently you *have* to blow a Dodge or just die from those). The new Rituals make playing a weapon poison based assassin a heck of a lot more viable, which is what my vision for the character was when I first started him back in 2006. I may take a Disarm or two, which I tried a few years ago and gave up because they're horribly useless in 1.3.

Earth Templar (level 30ish, low to moderate amounts of "stuff") -
Would stay pretty much the same, going from swinging 12s down to 5s or 6s. Unlikely to get any Crit Attacks as the character is about self-survivability. Again, memorizing down is a huge deal, as is healing at every level - the character is very based around a "keep the team up while holding the front line" philosophy (for certain members of the team, anyways), and the 2.0 spell changes definitely help there. Relics are "eh" for him - I mean, he'll carry a focus, which is nice, but it's more a quality-of-life thing out of combat to prevent people from roleplaying puking (and the like) for 10 minutes.

Fighter (level 10ish, very low amounts of "stuff") -
I'd actually hoped to start this character after 2.0 came out, but will instead be starting it in a couple of weeks at the next Oregon event (got tired of waiting!). I'm REALLY looking forward to playing a Fighter in 2.0 - the armor and skill enhancements make playing the character a lot more appealing than he will be for the remainder of 1.3. I want to have plate mail actually mean something! Mettle is pretty awesome (I think of it as a 4 XP cost ability that works in 3s for Fighters and 10s for everyone else), as are Fast Refit, Intercept, and Hearty. I LOVE the idea of being able to actually fight against a Shield effectively as a 2h weapon user (using Disarms and Shatters, which in 1.3 just stink) - in 1.3 that situation kind of sucks for the 2h weapon user. Bursting up by say +5 for big fights is an incredible option to have. I don't plan to take Slays or Eviscerates until a much higher level, instead focusing on the "utility" skills and profs.

I know popular opinion on these forums is that "everything other than Celestials will suck in 2.0" but I'm expecting to have a blast with my new Fighter (who, while a Wylderkin, will NOT take Dodge... *GASP!*). I've really enjoyed the playtesting I've done as a Fighter-based PC so far. I *will* note that playing a 2.0 fighter against 1.3-scaled monsters sucks! Playing a 2.0 fighter against 2.0 scaled monsters (significantly fewer takeouts and significantly less body), however, is a ton of fun.

-Bryan

 

[Graham Wolsey]

I know popular opinion on these forums is that "everything other than Celestials will suck in 2.0" but I'm expecting to have a blast with my new Fighter (who, while a Wylderkin, will NOT take Dodge... *GASP!*). I've really enjoyed the playtesting I've done as a Fighter-based PC so far. I *will* note that playing a 2.0 fighter against 1.3-scaled monsters sucks! Playing a 2.0 fighter against 2.0 scaled monsters (significantly fewer takeouts and significantly less body), however, is a ton of fun.

-Bryan

Have you ever fought a first level Celestial Scholar as your Fighter? Our campaign often fights against people not monsters and such.

 

[Polare]

Have you ever fought a first level Celestial Scholar as your Fighter? Our campaign often fights against people not monsters and such.

First level I wouldn't worry about (and I haven't played yet with this character, who is coming in new, but as a previous Fighter I played for some years up to about 18th level and then retired, yes). With 25 XP, even just going for spells, they have at highest a 4th level spell. They might Bind and Disarm me a couple of times but... eh? Leaving LOS and returning, or pulling out extra weapons, or using a Mettle, or pulling out a thrown weapon or two solves pretty much anything a low-level C scholar can throw. With 50ish armor and 30ish body, I'm not really worried about a 1st level scholar throwing a bunch of Evocation at me. Even beyond all that, despite what theorycrafting might say, not every packet that's thrown hits - that's why Spellstrikes are so much more valuable than packet-thrown spells, as you can pretty much guarantee a Spellstrike will connect.

Against a fifth level Scholar is another story. The first "take out" spells are at 6th level in 2.0 (since Web is gone), but once they reach that point Sleeps are deadly. Mettle is really the best answer there, but certainly I would expect an equal level scholar (10th to 11th) of *either* school to beat my fighter in a straight up empty-field one on one fight, as they'll have more debilitating spells than I will defenses against them.

But I have to say that that doesn't bother me! Really, it doesn't. Because Alliance fights don't happen in a vacuum. Both sides are likely to have pre-casts, potions, and maybe a basic magic item or two that change things up quite a bit. Teamwork changes things a LOT. An Earth Templar + a Fighter has a pretty even chance against 2 Scholars of equal level - once you close the gap, swinging 5s to 10s (without using Crit Attacks or Slays or anything like that, even) takes down Scholars really, really fast. Fighters *should* be covering each other during Mettles, whether with Intercepts, stepping in the way with their armor, or with Production help. Mixed teams win fights in 2.0, in all the Playtests I've seen. Where people get into trouble is when they have all Fighters or all casters or all rogues.

Most Alliance combat is expected to happen against monsters, not PC cards of equal level. PCs have to spread their resources throughout a day, after all, while the NPCs don't. With that 10th level Fighter I'm much better equipped than a similar leveled Scholar to deal with wave battles, for example, or even a simple module with several spawns. But as a solo Fighter I'm also not expecting to win out against takeouts (of which there should be significantly fewer in 2.0); that's what teams are *for*. My personal opinion is that if you play to your class' strengths in 2.0 you'll have a fun time with any class, and I'm happily intending to enjoy all of the PCs I play in 2.0.

 

[Draven]

Regarding pre-casts, and specifically pre-casts, I’m not sure that’s going to be accurate in a world where protections expire at end of event.

 

[Polare]

Regarding pre-casts, and specifically pre-casts, I’m not sure that’s going to be accurate in a world where protections expire at end of event.

Right now, a lot of players have a lot of TP in precast potions that they just don't use, especially at higher levels. Although "precasts expiring at the end of the event" is not the solution I would have preferred (I would have preferred to go with "everyone starts each event with a full boat" to deal with the same problem of "it sucks to try and remember what your character had at the end of the event 6 months ago"), I do think it helps deal with the glut of production items that don't see much use right now, and making things like Magic Armor potions actually in strong demand.

I don't assume everyone will always have every precast up (which I pretty much assume in 1.3), but it's not like they don't exist in 2.0, and they're something to be figured into the calculus of "ARMCHAIR GRAND MELEE!" which is what we're doing here

 

[Graham Wolsey]

First level I wouldn't worry about (and I haven't played yet with this character, who is coming in new, but as a previous Fighter I played for some years up to about 18th level and then retired, yes). With 25 XP, even just going for spells, they have at highest a 4th level spell. They might Bind and Disarm me a couple of times but... eh? Leaving LOS and returning, or pulling out extra weapons, or using a Mettle, or pulling out a thrown weapon or two solves pretty much anything a low-level C scholar can throw. With 50ish armor and 30ish body, I'm not really worried about a 1st level scholar throwing a bunch of Evocation at me. Even beyond all that, despite what theorycrafting might say, not every packet that's thrown hits - that's why Spellstrikes are so much more valuable than packet-thrown spells, as you can pretty much guarantee a Spellstrike will connect.

Spellshield Popper -> Bind Legs -> Bind Arms -> Kill You.
If at any point a Mettle is used then 1st Level Scholar then disarms your weapon and picks it up and then you're dead. If they have multiple weapons on them then a 2nd Bind Arms will kill you. You cannot Mettle while you are in a Mettle. The first level scholar killed any level Fighter unless they have access to Racial Dodge, or Racial Resist Magic.

 

[Tantarus]

once you close the gap, swinging 5s to 10s (without using Crit Attacks or Slays or anything like that, even) takes down Scholars really, really fast.

Scholar will have 20ish body and 30 arcane in many cases. So 10 hits at 5 damage and 5 at 10, not assuming magic armor. That means you are probably going to take 2-3 spells in best case.

 

[Graham Wolsey]

Unless the scholar is really a special case of awful at throwing packets it is impossible to close the distance without taking 2 packets. Exceptions exist in truly chaotic situations where the Fighter can sneak up on the caster or ambush them somehow.

**There is one possible exception. If the Fighter is a really ridiculously high level the Scholar might not be able to do enough melee damage with a dagger to kill you before the 10 minute duration of their spells end. In this case there IS a cap on Fighter level a 1st level scholar can kill**

 

[Melimir]

Scholar will have 20ish body and 30 arcane in many cases. So 10 hits at 5 damage and 5 at 10, not assuming magic armor. That means you are probably going to take 2-3 spells in best case.

Hey I am all for removing arcane armor. I am a scholar and I wear a set of chainmail even though I am over the class cap.

 

[Graham Wolsey]

Our chapter has a lot of characters that what we call OOG "Cheater Mail" which is Micro Mesh Chainmail professionally made out of Stainless Steel* (Thanks Alavatar). It looks amazing and maybe weighs 4 pounds tops. Almost all of our scholars except for Dryads wear it and are well over Armor Cap.

 

[Tantarus]

Hey I am all for removing arcane armor. I am a scholar and I wear a set of chainmail even though I am over the class cap.

I'm not. I use to wear a chain shirt for over 10 years, it was around 25lbs. I am getting older and have back problems. I really can't wear it easily now so I moved to arcane armor.

 

[Tantarus]

Our chapter has a lot of characters that what we call OOG "Cheater Mail" which is Micro Mesh Chainmail professionally made out of Aluminum. It looks amazing and maybe weighs 4 pounds tops. Almost all of our scholars except for Dryads wear it and are well over Armor Cap.

Ohhh, got a link to where they get it? That is pretty sweet sounding.

 

[Graham Wolsey]

https://www.ringmesh.com/

I use a set for my Fighter to maintain maximum mobility for packet dodging and I can't recommend it enough. I've been using it for the entire time I've played Alliance and it is "as new". Its a little expensive but really really worth the cost.

 

[Tantarus]

Nice, kinda pricey for a lot of larpers. Cool if I am ever forced back into armor, will keep that in mind, thanks for the info.

 

[Alavatar]

Note: Ringmesh' product is stainless steel. The rings are welded so they don't come off; it was originally designed as shark mail, but larpers and interior designers have commandeered it. I have a shirt and coif I bought nearly ten years ago that is still in fantastic condition.

Now back to your regularly scheduled poll discussion.

 

[Muir]

Our chapter has a lot of characters that what we call OOG "Cheater Mail" which is Micro Mesh Chainmail professionally made out of Aluminum. It looks amazing and maybe weighs 4 pounds tops. Almost all of our scholars except for Dryads wear it and are well over Armor Cap.

Yeah, if the new armor rules go in and I don't quit playing, I'm going to probably pick up a set of that stuff and layer over it a bit. It's really nice in person.

 

[MaxIrons]

You cannot Mettle while you are in a Mettle.

Just wanted to point out this isn't actually true:

"...and may use no Game Skills other than additional uses of Mettle (which restarts their 10 second count)." - v2.0.10e

 

[Polare]

Spellshield Popper -> Bind Legs -> Bind Arms -> Kill You.
If at any point a Mettle is used then 1st Level Scholar then disarms your weapon and picks it up and then you're dead. If they have multiple weapons on them then a 2nd Bind Arms will kill you. You cannot Mettle while you are in a Mettle. The first level scholar killed any level Fighter unless they have access to Racial Dodge, or Racial Resist Magic.

We will have to agree to disagree on this. In 20+ years of playing, including 7 years as a Fighter (a number of years ago) and tons of time double-hooking or running Plot and playing a Fighter-type monster, I just haven't seen the scenario you quote actually play out on the field (with Pin and Bind in the place of what you describe) without something else happening along the way. Multiple Mettles *can* be chained together. Virtually every Fighter I see carries multiple weapons, and most have some sort of ranged option even if they *do* get Pinned (or Bind:Legs in 2.0) whether that's Read Magic, thrown weapons, a bow, or Alchemy. I feel like what you describe is what happens if the Fighter walks up to the Scholar with no support and just takes things. And, at the end of the day, 1 on 1 fights rarely happen on either side.

Alliance values weapon skills higher than packet skills because packet skills miss. Look at weapon coatings on arrows - when properly applied, they are quite literally half the cost of weapon coatings on melee weapons. Look at the cost to create a Spellstrike instead of an Expanded Enchantment in the current system.

So, if a Fighter casually walks up to a Scholar and is not prepared to defend themselves and has no fallback options in the form of additional weapons or ranged options, sure, what you describe could happen. I could just as easily argue the other way around - the Fighter could easily get multiple swings off on an unsuspecting Scholar before they can even pull out a packet. But this is exactly why we run Playtests - because gaming these things out on (virtual) paper in a vacuum simply does not reflect how Alliance actually works.

-Bryan

 

[Draven]

While Bryan and I have different opinions about .10, I can agree with his point about the value of melee versus the value of packet. It’s one of the reasons I want Earth Casters to have a healing resource, because Earth Slots that are used offensively are inherently less efficient than Earth Slots used for touchcast spells, and forcing Earth Casters to be touchcasters due to less resources than their C counterparts is unfair.

 

[Gilwing]

I'd have to disagree with both of you. Have a wave battle with multiple casters, heck make it all casters. They win. Range is >melee in that I can get to you before you get to me. That is why, in Brian's example the fighters have a ranged attack.