v0.10 Simplicity (With Poll)

[mikestrauss]

Also shatter and disarm work very different now and are much easier to use against shields. To the point that I think shields will be very weak in 2.0.

I just don't see that being true. Shatter and Disarm already exist in a form that insanely easy to use against shields (spell packets). And those two spells are pretty much the best option at 3rd level for celestial casters, so they are already pretty darn common. Despite this, shields are pretty much dominant throughout the Alliance. It is one of those skills that if you doubled the cost of it, most people would still buy it (I know because I conducted a poll). That is almost perfect elasticity (economic term).

Even if fighters absolutely max out on Disarms and Shatters, they end up with fewer total per day (more Disarms, less Shatters) than a comparable celestial caster who maxes out on spells (assuming columns, not pyramid, which would be even more in the favor of celestial casters).

Yet, despite the prevalence of Disarms and Shatters already in the game, shields continue to be a hugely dominant mechanic. And I would argue that the primary reason is because Shatter and Disarm, as good as they are against shields, are a limited resource. A 20th level PC (approximately Alliance average level) only has, at most, 8 of each per day. Across the average day, that is maybe one per fight. Fighters will face the same limitation.

Of course, that only analyzes half the situation. The other half of the situation is how dominant Shatters and Disarms will be against PCs. And once again, I don't think there will be much change. NPCs already had access to Disarm and Shatter effects as spells, Magic abilities, Arcane abilities, by voice (*shudder*), and even as Elemental abilities if a plot team was feeling really weird. If the plot team wanted to overwhelm the PCs with these effects, it would already have happened. Allowing the melee version of the effect to be more efficient doesn't really change how much this effect challenges PCs, because that was always just at the discretion of monster desk.

I posit that the efficacy of shields used by NPCs is primarily limited by the access monster camp has to shields (for many monster camps, a much lower supply than warm bodies) and how well built those shields are (usually heavier and more awkward than PC shields). I posit that the efficacy of shields used by PCs is primarily limited by how aggressively the plot team targets them with Disarm effects (and to a lesser degree Shatter effects). I don't think these new rules change either of those factors in any meaningful way.

-MS

Note: Right now, basically any ritual on a shield also makes it unable to be shattered. I assume that continues to be true in 2.0, but I haven't been able to figure out if that is true or not. If not, and if Render is completely gone from the game, then THAT rule change would have a more significant effect on the game. But, as it is, Shatter basically stops being meaningful as soon as a player gets access to any type of magic shield.

 

[Muir]

Shields remain prevalent because they are very good and it is very easy to acquire a Rendered one via DS or GS.

 

[Tevas]

Shields remain prevalent because they are very good and it is very easy to acquire a Rendered one via DS or GS.

Completely agree. Shields are popular because shields are good.

Beyond just being good, they provide additional utility through people being able to mount scrolls, potions, throwing weapons, etc. on the inside facing. They double as a loot split table, a pillow, and an umbrella.

If people are properly calling their full damage before connecting with a shot, then the number of Florentine shots they can throw becomes artificially checked by the damage call, not necessarily by your swing speed or weapon availability. This levels Florentine and board to the same rate of fire, with the benefits of an offhand weapon option for feints or alternate angle threat (albeit at reduced range) not quite measuring up to the benefits provided by a board. Because great weapons and polearms are so short, and require both hands to be on them at all times, their range is limited and they do not have access to the full range of attack angles that a one handed weapon does. All in all, the Alliance Rules simply position boards as the superior melee setup, from a purely mechanical standpoint.

Also, shield spins.

 

[Draven]

While I agree that shields are absolutely fantastic (I dropped 12 build on it as a Scholar, and I would have spent more), and that they outstrip Two Weapons by a significant margin for the same reasons provided by Tevas, they have one pretty glaring weakness.

They're easy as heck to hit. That's not really a weakness in 1.3 (outside of being packet magnets, really). But it becomes a massive vulnerability in 2.0.

Disarm/Disarm/Disarm/Eviscerate into your now illegally held shield. I'm going to land 100% of these shots. I won't need skill. I won't provide a satisfying exchange of blows. I'm just another NPC with a beefy card, and I'm being sent out to chew someone down. There's a reason caster NPCs are powerful; they're gonna burn all their resources taking people down, they're not thinking about having leftover spells for tomorrow. And I just took down one of your big fighters without even landing a shot on his body. I bet he had a great time with that.

I mean, heck, at -least- "Prepare to Die!" allowed people to know something was about to come at them. But that's gone. If we're going to do this kind of nerf to shields, we absolutely need for PTD calls to remain in the game so board fighters have a chance to defend themselves. Because they won't. Choosing to wield a shield means you're not going to be able to fight confidently against a melee combatant, because if you're running low on Parries, you're unable to protect yourself against a Disarmstorm.

 

[Muir]

They're really not that easy to hit if you know how to use them and don't strap a max sized board to your arm. I fight with an 18" center-gripped round. I'm six and a half feet tall. It provides plenty of coverage without eating a bunch of spells.

That said, yeah, I'd drop it and get the build back if .10 went live now. 'disarm, disarm, eviscerate' drumrolling is too easy as written.

 

[Tevas]

That said, yeah, I'd drop it and get the build back if .10 went live now. 'disarm, disarm, eviscerate' drumrolling is too easy as written.

This happened quite often during our playtesting. As the day wore on at each playtest, and Parries were exhausted, it reliably insta-dropped people.

 

[Avaran]

-

 

[Tantarus]

That said, yeah, I'd drop it and get the build back if .10 went live now. 'disarm, disarm, eviscerate' drumrolling is too easy as written.

This happened quite often during our playtesting. As the day wore on at each playtest, and Parries were exhausted, it reliably insta-dropped people.

This is my experience in play tests as well. And something I have been saying since 2.0 was revealed to the public. Fighters have so many PTDs now and so few defenses compared to it. Melee combat is going to break down into daily skills in 2.0 and to me, that sucks.

Also it occurs to me. What happens when you riposte a shatter or disarm strike? What is the new target?

 

[Draven]

Clearly you strike the new target with your riposte call, duh.

 

[Tevas]

Also it occurs to me. What happens when you riposte a shatter or disarm strike? What is the new target?

There’s a flowchart for this. Shield users are clearly superior in v2, as the back of the shield serves as a convenient place to mount this flowchart, as well as other reference documents, all of which are needed to successfully engage in the “simple” v2 environment.

 

[Tevas]

There’s a flowchart for this. Shield users are clearly superior in v2, as the back of the shield serves as a convenient place to mount this flowchart, as well as other reference documents, all of which are needed to successfully engage in the “simple” v2 environment.

Seriously though, it feels like there’s way more stuff to keep track of in v2. There are far too many 10-minute timers. No one accurately counts them. You can’t. Especially with multiple effects running simultaneously, calling and processing effects, tracking what you’ve used, counting to repair armor or perform First Aid, or meditate in combat. Then add incoming negative effects that stick and need to be tracked.

We really need to eliminate all these “extra” things to keep track of, as well as get rid of any timers longer than one minute. The v0.10e packet is currently cluttered with additional timers and per days to track that realistically can’t be done so accurately.


Beneficial Counts: 17

Armor Refit
Back Attack
Circle of Power
Critical Attack
Earth Blade
Elemental Strike
Empowered Blade
Empowered Armor
First Aid
Fortress
Healing Strike
Magic Strike
Meditate (Improved)
Monster Slayer
Potency
Sanctuary
Wall of Force


Detrimental Counts: 20

Bleed Out
Charm
Corrupt
Create Undead
Destruction
Disease
Drain
Dying
Enfeeble
Fear
Paralysis
Prison
Shun
Silence
Sleep
Stun Limb
Subjugate
Turn Undead
Weakness
Wither


I’m sure I’ve forgotten a few things...

 

[mikestrauss]

There’s a flowchart for this. Shield users are clearly superior in v2, as the back of the shield serves as a convenient place to mount this flowchart, as well as other reference documents, all of which are needed to successfully engage in the “simple” v2 environment.

I don't want to be too pointed about this, because we are all human and our emotions sometimes get the best of us, but I don't think the Playtest Community Manager should be making comments this vitriolic on the public boards. I sorta expect you to portray a little more neutral attitude in your public posts.

-MS

 

[Tantarus]

I don't want to be too pointed about this, because we are all human and our emotions sometimes get the best of us, but I don't think the Playtest Community Manager should be making comments this vitriolic on the public boards. I sorta expect you to portray a little more neutral attitude in your public posts.

-MS

Why, he is allowed to have opinions. Informed by playtests he has done.

Also as this poll clearly shows, he is in the majority on that opinion. And not by alittle.

 

[mikestrauss]

Seriously though, it feels like there’s way more stuff to keep track of in v2. There are far too many 10-minute timers. No one accurately counts them. You can’t. Especially with multiple effects running simultaneously, calling and processing effects, tracking what you’ve used, counting to repair armor or perform First Aid, or meditate in combat. Then add incoming negative effects that stick and need to be tracked.

We really need to eliminate all these “extra” things to keep track of, as well as get rid of any timers longer than one minute. The v0.10e packet is currently cluttered with additional timers and per days to track that realistically can’t be done so accurately.

That last part (eliminating timers longer than a minute) makes resurrections much more likely (5 minute timer to get a life spell). I think I said something similar elsewhere, but I don't mind 10-minute timers when a person is completely disabled (Sleep, Paralysis, etc.), because you have nothing else to do at that time, so it becomes easy to track (especially if you carry a small watch around that you can pull out and time it perfectly... like the rulebook suggests).

-MS

 

[mikestrauss]

Why, he is allowed to have opinions. Informed by playtests he has done.

Of course he is. But he should try to avoid phrasing his opinions like snide comments. Heck, we all should, but as someone in a leadership position, he has an extra responsibility to present a good example.

-MS

 

[Tantarus]

Of course he is. But he should try to avoid phrasing his opinions like snide comments. Heck, we all should, but as someone in a leadership position, he has an extra responsibility to present a good example.

-MS

Being snarky is different then being snide, you are reading alot into his comments. I actually laughed when I read his flowchart comment. These threads could use a little humor.

 

[Tevas]

Of course he is. But he should try to avoid phrasing his opinions like snide comments. Heck, we all should, but as someone in a leadership position, he has an extra responsibility to present a good example.

-MS

Please see subsequent post.

 

[Muir]

Seriously though, it feels like there’s way more stuff to keep track of in v2. There are far too many 10-minute timers. No one accurately counts them. You can’t. Especially with multiple effects running simultaneously, calling and processing effects, tracking what you’ve used, counting to repair armor or perform First Aid, or meditate in combat. Then add incoming negative effects that stick and need to be tracked.

We really need to eliminate all these “extra” things to keep track of, as well as get rid of any timers longer than one minute. The v0.10e packet is currently cluttered with additional timers and per days to track that realistically can’t be done so accurately.


Beneficial Counts: 17

Armor Refit
Back Attack
Circle of Power
Critical Attack
Earth Blade
Elemental Strike
Empowered Blade
Empowered Armor
First Aid
Fortress
Healing Strike
Magic Strike
Meditate (Improved)
Monster Slayer
Potency
Sanctuary
Wall of Force


Detrimental Counts: 20

Bleed Out
Charm
Corrupt
Create Undead
Destruction
Disease
Drain
Dying
Enfeeble
Fear
Paralysis
Prison
Shun
Silence
Sleep
Stun Limb
Subjugate
Turn Undead
Weakness
Wither


I’m sure I’ve forgotten a few things...

Don't forget, almost all of these can be on one person at the same time.

 

[mikestrauss]

Since when do Sanctuary and Fortress have timers? I thought they simply lasted until you stopped doing the appropriate hand sign.

-MS

 

[Avaran]

-