Weakness and Slay/Assassinate/Eviscerating Blow

[Vryan]

Does Weakness lower Slay, Assassinate, or Eviscerating Blow damage? For example, if I am under the Weakness effect and I wish to use my Eviscerating Blow, do I need to call it as "495 body"? I assume the answer is no, but the text for Weakness in the beta ARB seems a little ambiguous. It reads:

This effect will curse the victim to inflict 5 points less damage with every weapon attack (minimum damage being zero, of course). It will first reduce strength bonuses, then weapon proficiencies.
It affects all weapon damage in the same way, including ranged attacks, and regardless of whether the weapon is used with one hand or two.

 

[Roff]

I mean I would argue yes it clearly claims every weapon attack and All weapon damage.
Calls are a little weirder nowadays but it makes sense.

 

[tieran]

Yeah. The text for Weakness seems pretty clear cut in that it references all weapon attacks, so any <number> <carrier> attacks delivered with a weapon, but not, for example, spell strikes with a number, like signature spells delivered via combined strike.

 

[Draven]

Weakness did not apply to slay damage in 1.3. Well the formula has changed, and the verbal is different, it is still a damage call like it was in 1.3. I do not think the intent of weakness was to apply to Slay.

 

[tieran]

It would have been pretty easy to make that intent clear. I wouldn’t hold the zany 1.3 stuff against 2.0 as a way to establish precedent.

In theory, if I swing 20s, I can also have a pile of 20 damage slays that would sound no different to the outside observer.

I see no reason why one of those things would be immune to weakness under the current system.

 

[Vryan]

The text for Weakness in the beta ARB is completely unchanged from the 1.3 rulebook, which leads me to think it should work exactly how it did before. Since it's collectively agreed upon that Weakness did not affect Slay or Assassinate in 1.3 (despite, to my knowledge, no language in the 1.3 rulebook actually supporting this), I imagine it was intended for Weakness to not affect them in 2.0 as well.

 

[Draven]

Also, no one is going to want to calculate 95 damage assassinates or 35 damage slays, etc.

If this was a tabletop game, I would be more receptive. But it isn’t, and I do not think it is worth the trouble.

 

[Roff]

The text for Weakness in the beta ARB is completely unchanged from the 1.3 rulebook, which leads me to think it should work exactly how it did before. Since it's collectively agreed upon that Weakness did not affect Slay or Assassinate in 1.3 (despite, to my knowledge, no language in the 1.3 rulebook actually supporting this), I imagine it was intended for Weakness to not affect them in 2.0 as well.

Well the text from weakness has not changed the text for slays have changed drastically into a position where I believe weakness would now apply to them.

 

[Polare]

Weakness does exactly what it says it does. Slays, Assassinates, and Eviscerate are definitely affected by it, as they are Weapon attacks using a number.

-Bryan Gregory
ARC

 

[Captnb]

With the formalized effect/delivery/qualifier paradigm, what exactly is a 'weapon attack'? My reading of it is that it's any attack with the Weapon Qualifier. It seems like other people are interpenetrating it as any attack with Physical Delivery, which covers a broader range of what is typically encountered in game.

 

[Alkalin3]

With the formalized effect/delivery/qualifier paradigm, what exactly is a 'weapon attack'? My reading of it is that it's any attack with the Weapon Qualifier. It seems like other people are interpenetrating it as any attack with Physical Delivery, which covers a broader range of what is typically encountered in game.

This question is important for when you've applied poisons to your weapon.

 

[Ruki]

Does that mean Weakness would also affect United Blow?

 

[tieran]

United blow is still a weapon strike, just with added damage, so I’d say yes.

 

[Polare]

Weakness should affect Weapon qualifier attacks. This sentence:

"It affects all weapon damage in the same way"

should be read as Weapon qualifier. I'll look at getting the word "qualifier" added into the paragraph if it would help clear up confusion.

One thing to keep in mind - please try to work with the 2.0 rules as written without bringing old 1.3 preconceptions in. Just because Weakness didn't affect Slay damage in 1.3 (actually, I think there's an argument that it should have, but that's irrelevant now), doesn't mean you shouldn't read the wording as exactly what it says in 2.0. It says it affects Weapon damage. It affects Weapon damage. It does exactly what it says on the tin.

-Bryan Gregory
ARC

 

[tieran]

My one big takeaway from the above is that the new rules are going to come in a tin, with the rules on the outside.

 

[Captnb]

United blow is still a weapon strike, just with added damage, so I’d say yes.

By the text, United Blow just adds damage and carrier to a 'swing from behind'. Most of the time this will be a weapon blow, so United Blow would not be changing that.

I do see some potentially weird interactions:
- If you have an alchemical coating on your weapon (let's say an Enfeeble), and you hit with a United Blow, would the call be '<X> Poison Body' or just '<X> Body' and the coating would be used up (much like the interaction of a Blade spell and a coating described on p94). I suppose it depends on whether the Poison Qualifier and the Effect of the coating are intrinsically linked, or if one can be overridden by another effect without affecting the other. I saw nothing in the coating rules to indicate either way. The p94 example seems to indicate that they cannot be split, but that also looks like carryover language from 1.3, so I'm not sure how much to read into that.
- Do Spell Strikes of Signature Spells From Behind count as a 'swing from behind' Could a '40 Spell Strike Flame' become a '120 Spell Strike Body' with UB?

 

[Feldor]

My take away is that the rules do what they say they do; and not what rulings and field-calls made over the 20 years previous to 2.0 say they do. And if something is unclear, we should ask the question so it ends up in the rules.

 

[Draven]

By the text, United Blow just adds damage and carrier to a 'swing from behind'. Most of the time this will be a weapon blow, so United Blow would not be changing that.

I do see some potentially weird interactions:
- If you have an alchemical coating on your weapon (let's say an Enfeeble), and you hit with a United Blow, would the call be '<X> Poison Body' or just '<X> Body' and the coating would be used up (much like the interaction of a Blade spell and a coating described on p94). I suppose it depends on whether the Poison Qualifier and the Effect of the coating are intrinsically linked, or if one can be overridden by another effect without affecting the other. I saw nothing in the coating rules to indicate either way. The p94 example seems to indicate that they cannot be split, but that also looks like carryover language from 1.3, so I'm not sure how much to read into that.
- Do Spell Strikes of Signature Spells From Behind count as a 'swing from behind' Could a '40 Spell Strike Flame' become a '120 Spell Strike Body' with UB?

Re: Enfeeble coating.

Your call would be X Poison Enfeeble. You would lose the Body carrier in exchange for the Enfeeble carrier.

 

[tieran]

Also United blow does not add damage too a swing behind it allows you to to swing for a blow from behind. So it cannot be added to other abilities ect. But things that would effect swings like poisons would still apply.

United blow absolutely does add damage to a swing from behind.

ETA- and the body carrier. Unless you have a bow. Which still isn’t in the rule book. Unless it’s not in the rule book on purpose.

 

[Captnb]

United blow does not add damage too a swing behind it allows you to to swing for a blow from behind. So it cannot be added to other abilities, spell strikes, slays ect. But things that would effect swings like poisons would still apply.


united blow wording
Once this skill has been purchased, the character may expend any Signature Spell from memory to gain 10x the level of the spell in damage and gain the Body carrier for a single swing from behind. This may be done any number of times per day.

While the wording of UB is somewhat vague, the example clearly shows adding the damage/carrier onto the users blow (regualr '10 Normal' to '70 Body' with expenditure of a 6th level Evoc Bolt).