Weakness and Slay/Assassinate/Eviscerating Blow

Roff

Newbie
While the wording of UB is somewhat vague, the example clearly shows adding the damage/carrier onto the users blow (regualr '10 Normal' to '70 Body' with expenditure of a 6th level Evoc Bolt).
Yes my wording was terrible I was trying to say I believe you couldn’t add it on top of an assassinate
 

tieran

Duke
Gettysburg Staff
Marshal
Yes my wording was terrible I was trying to say I believe you couldn’t add it on top of an assassinate
Given @Polare ‘s earlier comment, I don’t see why not.
 

Feldor

Scholar
Marshal
For the record, in the current 2.0 rulebook, it never says you can only have 1 carrier. It does say carriers can only be delivered via Weapon delivery. Which seems awkward at odds with Poisoned blades. It is likely that is meant to be "physical delivery" and not "Weapon".

Is it legit to pull a carrier from a swing? For example, can I use United Blow without adding the "Body" carrier? If not, then I don't think you can use "United Blow" with a poisoned blade, since both the Poison and United Blow require a carrier.
 

Manflesh

Artisan
For the record, in the current 2.0 rulebook, it never says you can only have 1 carrier. It does say carriers can only be delivered via Weapon delivery. Which seems awkward at odds with Poisoned blades. It is likely that is meant to be "physical delivery" and not "Weapon".
Doesn't it here though?
Rulebook 2.0 Page 100 said:
Carrier attacks are a special type of Weapon qualifier attack.
Rulebook 2.0 Page 97 said:
No matter what, a single attack can use no more than one qualifier and no more than one effect.
 

Captnb

Newbie
Doesn't it here though?
By my reading, you have the correct answer, but not quite for the right reason. A Carrier attack still has the Weapon Qualifier, but the Carrier is the Effect (though one contingent on breaching armor).

Rulebook 2.0 Page 100 said: said:
If a Weapon qualifier attack has a damage number and a special effect, it’s considered a Carrier attack.
Changing the highlighting, this part still keep us from having multiple carriers:
Rulebook 2.0 Page 97 said: said:
No matter what, a single attack can use no more than one qualifier and no more than one effect.
This does cause an issue with weapon coatings though. It looks like there was a wording change from the v0.12 to the beta:
ARB 2.0 final - v0.12b Page 4 said: said:
If a Weapon or Poison qualifier attack uses a number...
Was this intent, an oversight, or am I missing something?
 

Feldor

Scholar
Marshal
A Carrier attack still has the Weapon Qualifier, but the Carrier is the Effect (though one contingent on breaching armor).
Also, this is just inaccurate. (Not trying to nitpick you; just on how we tend to describe carriers.) Consider Body, Chaos, Healing, and Massive carriers. All are not contingent on breaching armor. If that statement was accurate, massive would not breach a prison if the person inside the prison still had armor.

I'm still unclear on, can you invoke 2 abilities that specify a carrier and just only use one carrier? I want to say the answer is yes, weakly based on the precedent of having a healing imbuement & elemental imbuement running at the same time. But it does suggest that calls like "500 poison body" (eviscerate with a sleep-poison weapon) or "500 poison sleep" (eviscerate with a sleep-poison weapon) are valid; as could something like 500 poison doom (eviscerate with doom blow and a sleep-poison weapon).
 

Captnb

Newbie
Also, this is just inaccurate. (Not trying to nitpick you; just on how we tend to describe carriers.) Consider Body, Chaos, Healing, and Massive carriers. All are not contingent on breaching armor. If that statement was accurate, massive would not breach a prison if the person inside the prison still had armor.
Well the rulebook does say that this is so.
Rulebook 2.0 Page 100 said: said: said:
Carrier attacks are a special type of Weapon qualifier attack. If a Weapon qualifier attack has a damage number and a special effect, it’s considered a Carrier attack. In this case, the special effect will only work if the damage gets to your Body Points; if the damage only hits your Armor Points, the special effect doesn’t do anything extra. Carrier attacks can never provide a beneficial effect to the target; if you would be healed by a Carrier Effect, you instead call “No Effect” as if you were Immune to it.
Looking over this as written, while I know it's the intent, the armor penetrating carriers shouldn't work, as the Effect only kicks in when it gets to your Body Points. I was looking for the wording on how Body, Chaos, and Healing, are worded, but the only thing I could find was under Healing Blade: "If the target is affected, it will bypass any armor they are wearing and do direct Body Point damage."

So, it looks to me like either the definition of Carrier Attacks needs to be reworded, those Effects that bypass armor need to be defined in a way where they explicitly do.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
Y’all vastly overthinking this.

A Carrier Attack that affects how damage is applied is not comparable to a carrier attack that has an independent effect if it hits body points.

They are both carriers in the sense that they cannot stack, but they have completely different functions.
 

Manflesh

Artisan
Y’all vastly overthinking this.

A Carrier Attack that affects how damage is applied is not comparable to a carrier attack that has an independent effect if it hits body points.

They are both carriers in the sense that they cannot stack, but they have completely different functions.
Your terminology doesn't match with what is written in the Beta rulebook. I'm guessing that when you say "a carrier attack that affects how damage is applied," you are referring to an attack's qualifier (ex. Poison, Arcane, Elemental, etc). Looking above you'll see posted the definition out of the book for a Carrier Attack being a numeric weapon qualifier attack that has an attached effect.

MY confusion is that by this definition, non-vorpal poison coatings cannot be carrier attacks, since a coating replaces the Weapon qualifier with Poison.
 
Poison Coatings are in a weird position where they count as Physical Delivery Weapon attacks that can also be blocked by Poison Defenses; you can Parry or Evade them, a Weapon or Poison Shield will block them, and you can use Resist Poison to negate them, but they must hit your Body for you to take the Effect of the Poison. It might help to think of Carrier Attacks the same way, although the Body, Chaos, and Healing Effects bypass Armor by default and so are never subject to being negated by it. Massive is a weird Weapon Strike that also pierces all defenses other than Evade, Dodge, and Phase, but it at least says that in its description.

On a side note, it says in the description of Cause Wounds that Chaos will bypass Armor, and that creatures who swing for Cause Wounds will swing for Chaos instead; Cure Wounds has similar language saying they swing for Healing. It's a weird spot to put that information, since it's not also in the Chaos Blade description, but Earth Blade does note that if a creature is affected by Healing Carrier Weapon attacks, then the Healing will bypass Armor and do direct Body damage. I suspect it exists in the latter description so people understand that hitting an Undead for 5 Healing will ignore its Armor, but it should probably also exist in the former for consistency's sake against living creatures.
 
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Manflesh

Artisan
Poison Coatings are in a weird position where they count as Physical Delivery Weapon attacks that can also be blocked by Poison Defenses; you can Parry or Evade them, a Weapon or Poison Shield will block them, and you can use Resist Poison to negate them, but they must hit your Body for you to take the Effect of the Poison.
The beta rule book is not consistent with this ruling. If a new player wasn't planning to go into Alchemy and skipped over that chapter, they would earnestly believe a "10 Poison Sleep" weapon blow could not be Parried or Evaded. Poison attacks aren't even mentioned in the Carrier Attack rules paragraph and don't fit into the definition listed there either.

As a result, this line in the Alchemy section doesn't make sense, because Parry isn't a valid defense against a Poison qualifier attack.
Rule Book Beta page 116 said:
Any valid defenses against any part of the swing will negate the entire attack—for example, a Resist Poison, a Parry, or a Poison Shield would all stop a coated weapon swing from affecting the target.
I'm not even clear what is a carrier (as opposed to a carrier attack), a term used profusely throughout the rule book and ritual document. Is it a specific kind of effect? If that's the case, then this sentence in the alchemy section is problematic
Rule Book Beta page 116 said:
Its damage does not change, but instead of being called as whatever the standard carrier and effect of the weapon would be, it changes to “X Poison ”.
How can something have a carrier and an effect??

The carrier paragraph needs its own section in the rule book, with all possible carrier attacks listed and explained.
 
Parry isn't a valid defense against a Poison qualifier attack.
The description of Parry specifically says it can be used against Physically delivered Poison Qualifier attacks.
How can something have a carrier and an effect?
Carrier Attack is pretty clearly defined as a Physical delivery attack that causes a particular Effect; that is, the swing Carries the Effect, and if it hits you, you'll have to take it. Most Effects, such as Sleep or Paralysis, don't bypass Armor by default, and therefore when applied as a Carrier must deal Body damage to take effect. Chaos and Healing are noted as bypassing Armor, so attacks that use these Carriers also bypass Armor due to the Effect; Body isn't defined the same way, and probably should be, but the name heavily implies that if you're hit, the damage goes straight to Body and bypasses Armor, and as such attacks that use the Body Carrier also bypass Armor.

In the case of Poison Coatings, it's a Physical delivery attack that causes an Effect, and therefore a Carrier Attack; however, no Coatings in the base production list are Effects that bypass Armor by default, so none of the attacks that result from a Poison will, either.

Note that like all attacks that don't use a numeric value, Gas Globes, Trap Globes, and Spells do not have to penetrate Armor to have their Effects go through, which is why Carrier Attacks with things like Paralysis must hit Body but the equivalent Globe or Spell does not.

ETA: A list of every possible Carrier Attack would just be a list of every Effect in the game, plus a line that says "if you local Plot team sends out a particular Carrier, roll with it".
 
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Manflesh

Artisan
The description of Parry specifically says it can be used against Physically delivered Poison Qualifier attacks.
Leave it up to me to read the first line, but not the second! :rolleyes:

Carrier Attack is pretty clearly defined as a Physical delivery attack that causes a particular Effect; that is, the swing Carries the Effect, and if it hits you, you'll have to take it.
I and a few others on this thread have been saying, in the rule book right now on page 100 where it gives the definition for a Carrier Attack, it does not say that. It says it's a Weapon Qualifier attack, specifically a "special type of weapon qualifier." It use to say Weapon Qualifier and Poison Qualifier in the pre-release version, but now doesn't.

ETA: A list of every possible Carrier Attack would just be a list of every Effect in the game, plus a line that says "if you local Plot team sends out a particular Carrier, roll with it".
Fair, I suppose the more I think on it, I meant to be more referring to the points made by Brian (captnb), highlighting the fact that effects like Body, Massive, Healing, and Chaos are called carriers, even though they shouldn't be, since the one aspect that acutely defines a Carrier Attack doesn't apply to them.
 
It use to say Weapon Qualifier and Poison Qualifier in the pre-release version, but now doesn't.
Ah, gotcha. It should probably specify that Physically delivered Poisons also count as Carrier Attacks, yes.

Body, Massive, Healing, and Chaos are called carriers, even though they shouldn't be, since the one aspect that acutely defines a Carrier Attack doesn't apply to them.
I mean... I really depends on how closely to "damage gets to your Body Points" you want to go, but even by the strictest definition both Chaos and Healing fit the qualifications, since by their very nature they bypass Armor entirely and affect the Body automatically. Body does the same, even though that's not spelled out explicitly anywhere in the book (although it probably should be). Massive sits in a weird gap where it's almost closer to a Qualifier than a Carrier, but Massive also has its special rules spelled out in the description as affecting you even if you're wearing Armor.

As is the case in most games with lots of rules, the specific trumps the general here. In the same vein as "you can't cast Spells while Silenced" is trumped by Spell Augmentation specifically saying you can use it to cast while Silenced, "Carrier Attacks deal damage to Armor before applying their effects" is trumped by Chaos and Healing specifically saying they never damage Armor and by Massive saying that its effects apply even when dealing damage to Armor. (Body doesn't have a blurb, but it should have one added that includes the same "ignores Armor" text that Chaos and Healing have.)
 

Brooks

Newbie
Hey, So I remember Polare Saying that to differentiate between parry and evade, parry can also work on poison carrier attacks. Where evade can not. I couldn't find the post. But since it is a line added to parry, and not to evade. I don't think you can evade a poison carrier attack.

Page 47,
Evade, Daily

Evade is a Smart Defense can be used to evade any Weapon qualifier attack that has scored a valid hit on the character, including arrows, bolts and thrown weapons. When triggering this Defense, the character must call “Evade.”
 
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