Which performance problems and opportunities should the new rules address

Muir

Fighter
I'm curious if we'll see a perverse motivation in burst damage superiority that leads to people intentionally ducking mods so as to have all that burst damage available to go after the big Saturday night fight where the best loot drops. That has a potential to offset the improvements made in trying to get rid of the 'circle beat the BBG' issues that lead to huge card bloat on those NPCs just to keep them on the field long enough to entertain people.
 

Gilwing

Baron
Alliance Logistics
*Note to self; Don't tell Chris (I think that's your name, its been a while) how I messed up building my character ;)

Hehehe I agree with ya. It gives the player no reason to purchase them, unless you don't want to do the math and just want to swing the same amount, I bet random things will come out with thresholds so that the players are forced to swing higher

Edit* Chris as in Daedric, not Muir
 

Tevas

Scholar
Marshal
Playtest Community Manager
Unfortunately there will really never be a "right" answer as to which is particularly better. The plot teams and how they run games vary from chapter to chapter, and can further differentiate from module to module. Some may be executed in a fashion that provides more favorable play for one style, and some for another. There are certainly a number of factors that can influence which build is more competitive in a given situation. Ultimately it comes down to what playstyle you prefer as a player. Do you want to always have a competitive passive damage call, or do you want to actively manage your resources throughout the course of a logistics period so as to be able to have that moment of overdrive on demand?
 

Daedric

Newbie
*Note to self; Don't tell Chris (I think that's your name, its been a while) how I messed up building my character ;)

Hehehe I agree with ya. It gives the player no reason to purchase them, unless you don't want to do the math and just want to swing the same amount, I bet random things will come out with thresholds so that the players are forced to swing higher

Edit* Chris as in Daedric, not Muir
You got it correct.

Dave (right?),

I think that's going to be the trend. I just don't see there being enough mod hooks for everyone to burn through all of their crits/back attacks before the big battles. In which case, a powergamer would prefer to have the flexibility to use the damage at their discretion.

I hope this doesn't lead to plot people intentionally putting 10 minute gaps between waves in big battles, just to burn through PCs' battle boards.
 

Tevas

Scholar
Marshal
Playtest Community Manager
I'm curious if we'll see a perverse motivation in burst damage superiority that leads to people intentionally ducking mods so as to have all that burst damage available to go after the big Saturday night fight where the best loot drops. That has a potential to offset the improvements made in trying to get rid of the 'circle beat the BBG' issues that lead to huge card bloat on those NPCs just to keep them on the field long enough to entertain people.
Please note that playtesting is still being conducted. The total maximum of activatable Critical or Back Attacks may be reduced (or not!), or other changes may still be made that influence the manner in which "boss fights" are conducted. Also remember that anything characters have access to, NPC's have access to as well. This means the "boss" could pop a maximum level Empowered Warrior Defensive Burst for both Critical and Back Attacks, reducing incoming weapon damage by 15 and non weapon damage by 30. Would it be fun for anyone swinging 15 or less, or who didn't have access to 7th level damage spells or above? Probably not. But again, that's a matter for your plot team to successfully execute. The rules simply provide the tools that the plot team has access to.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
I hope this doesn't lead to plot people intentionally putting 10 minute gaps between waves in big battles, just to burn through PCs' battle boards.
That would be like hoping Plot doesn't overwave/overstat/etc just to burn through PCs battleboards.

Plot will always have the ability to take the safety off. You will always have to hope they act responsibly. And sometimes? That desperate scenario is what Plot -wants- you to feel.
 

Daedric

Newbie
That would be like hoping Plot doesn't overwave/overstat/etc just to burn through PCs battleboards.

Plot will always have the ability to take the safety off. You will always have to hope they act responsibly. And sometimes? That desperate scenario is what Plot -wants- you to feel.
I've had some experience with being on both ends of that rotisserie. I just hope that the new 10 minute rules don't result in widespread cheesing. NPC monsters usually don't live long enough for their 10 minute critical to expire. But if you stay dead long enough before you respawn, you can make sure that the PC that killed you doesn't have that critical anymore
 

Daedric

Newbie
That brings up another point, which kind of relates to what I was getting at in my original post.

How are we supposed to measure these 10 minutes? We don't want anachronisms such as wristwatches or digital timers around our necks. Are we supposed to count to 600 in our heads, while we're trying to take into account every damaging attack, and calculating our own damage multipliers, then doing division with rounding when we are struck by an attack that causes us to pop an evade? That sounds like a mind-boggling amount of math to try to perform in your head while you're being struck by padded sticks from every direction.

I could see a lot of attacks and effects being unintentionally ignored, and a lot of 10 minute periods expiring after 8 minutes, or extending upwards to 15 minutes. All of which can be blamed on the serious amount of head math we are asking our player base to do.
 

Muir

Fighter
Yeah, this is something that I see being a performance issue as well. I'd much prefer something on the side of an 'encounter' power that lasts through a vaguely specified 'scene', be it a mod or a few waves of a wave battle before plot pulls back, gives the PC's a minute to regroup and refit, and then hits them again, but that's entirely personal preference. Like death counts, 10 minute effects are really subjective without using actual timers.
 

Tevas

Scholar
Marshal
Playtest Community Manager
Unfortunately this is a core flaw of the system that has not been addressed throughout the playtest process. Simply take a look at the number of 10 minute effects that can stack with one another. It is not unreasonable for players to easily have three or more 10 minute timers running at once, or half a dozen in more complex encounters. You can be weakened, diseased, shunned, silenced, destructioned, have an earth blade and be running some of your own offensive and defensive timers in a fight against some Necromancers and their undead minions...all while still being able to fight. So you're supposed to be able to manage all of those timers, and correctly calculate incoming armor and body damage and any applicable reduction math, call and track defensives and use and track your own abilities. That's not something that will ever be done accurately, and really should be seriously addressed.
 

Daedric

Newbie
Well, we have a chance to correct it before the release. If it seems over-complicated, then it probably won't get any better in a live game environment.

Let's simplify it. I like Muir's suggestion. Make the consumable skill last for the duration of a predefined encounter...or for a single wave of a larger battle.

The less math, the better. It should be about having a streamlined system for attack and defense, so that people without calculators for brains can enjoy combat encounters too.
 

Muir

Fighter
I would agree 100% that this should be addressed. That is a level of complexity that no player should be expected to be able to keep perfectly straight in their head in combat, though no fault of their own because it is an overwhelming amount of information.
 

Tevas

Scholar
Marshal
Playtest Community Manager
The easiest way is to adopt standards. Examples for detrimental effects would be like Binding, where it lasts until the caster dies or breaks line of sight. Then, no counting is necessary, only tracking who hit you with what. Or, a plot member can define the start and end of an encounter, and all effects can expire at the end of each encounter. Brainstorming additional suggestions and discussing their merits would be encouraged, although might be best done in another thread.

I feel like Muir or Daedric would be great folks to spearhead this.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal

Daedric

Newbie
lol

I'm not a member of the ARC. I will gladly leave the rulemaking to the folks who have invested the time it took to develop the system we are trying to refine through these discussions.

But I appreciate the vote of confidence.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
lol

I'm not a member of the ARC. I will gladly leave the rulemaking to the folks who have invested the time it took to develop the system we are trying to refine through these discussions.

But I appreciate the vote of confidence.
Common misconception, but that's not ARC's job, either.

If someone wants to propose a change to the rules, the best (and only) avenue they have is to petition a chapter owner. ARC's job is to provide clarification and interpretation, but not actually authorize changes themselves.
 

Daedric

Newbie
Thank you for the correction. In either case, I'm sure that there are playtesters and rules-makers within my home chapter that are already aware of these issues. I'm certain that they are privy to these forums and are taking all of these observations into consideration.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
Interested parties starting a new thread and brainstorming isn't how this works?
Correct. Honestly, the whole "creating entirely new rules for Alliance/modifying rules" thing was pushed off the forums a long time ago.
 

Tevas

Scholar
Marshal
Playtest Community Manager
Thank you for the correction. In either case, I'm sure that there are playtesters and rules-makers within my home chapter that are already aware of these issues. I'm certain that they are privy to these forums and are taking all of these observations into consideration.
Unfortunately that may or may not be the case. Anyone can come up with an idea that may have been overlooked, and it is always possible for coordinators, ARC members or owners to miss things. Sourcing unique feedback from players who have valuable perspectives can only help to improve the likelihood that as many options for developing v2 have been considered as possible.
 
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