Why are Golems Gone?

ALWEASEL

ALWEASEL

Artisan
Hello All.
I am a Celestial caster and i have a question. Why are golems going away?
Is is a to much power thing? It just seems formal isn't as exciting. So to me it seems why become high level and do all the work to become a formalist, when some of the exciting things are going away or becoming nerfed. I have spent 3 years preparing for formal and next event i will have it. Now it's being taken away.
Just wondering.
Thanks much. sorry for the whining. :-)
Alan
 
Golems provided a unique benefit that was an order of magnitude greater for celestial casters than any other class, and something that could not be reproduced by any other skill or ability. They provided mass immunities, the ability to heal from evocation, and an unlimited number of Reflect Magics, not to mention the capability to achieve greater Body than any fighter and Monster Strength sufficient to rip any Binding.

Rather than create an alternative for other classes that would be of similar power, the powers that be elected to not continue power creep and instead elected to nerf Celestial casters by removing Master Constructs altogether. Celestial casters are still powerful, still a useful member of an adventuring team, and some argue that Celestial casters are still better than Earth casters, so the removal of Master Constructs was a necessary, if painful, requirement to attempt to return any semblance of class balance to the game.

Note: I speak from personal experience having lost ... 4? ... Master Constructs / Golems.
 
To build on Seth's excellent points:

1) A Golem could potentially have the ability to swing for +8 damage, meaning you could put a Scholar in one and he could swing for a minimum of 10 damage. Don't have a weapon skill? That's cool, they come built in with claws.

2) No matter what level of Golem you had, you got some pretty nifty immunities. Command/Necromancy/Gift/Poison/Alteration (it's important to separate the last two in case you have enemies that deliver Alteration through a non-poisonous means).

3) Guess what? You don't need Formals to get stuck into a Golem! All you need is the Spirit Store ritual, and you can put your resident high-level Fighter into one! Or if you're going away for awhile, but you want to loan out your golem, you can just spend a minute in a Celestial circle, jump out, and put your good friend in it!

4) The "downside" to Golems is that they can't be healed by Healing...buuuut they can totally get the ability to be healed by an Element, which is generally what happens. So you make your resident healers feel less useful, and your resident C-Caster, who already has nifty Wands, adds another purpose.

5) Don't want to auto-rez when your Golem pops? No problem! Body Store makes sure that you get a 5 minute chance to get a Life spell!

The fact you were looking forward to Formals for golems is the result of Golems skewing the board so much. Formals should be for Ritual casting and some High Magic tricks...not being able to turn yourself into a super soldier.
 
Speaking also as a C caster, I'm definitely ok with the master construct ritual going away. They were fun, but also hugely imbalancing.

On the other hand, I'm disappointed to see that there is no replacement in place for the Spirit Store high magic ability. High magic in general is really underwhelming in 2.0; I'd been hoping to see Earth casters brought up to where Celestial was in the current system, but it seems the opposite decision was made- to make the Celestial options just as mediocre as Earth.
 
ASFDan said:
Speaking also as a C caster, I'm definitely ok with the master construct ritual going away. They were fun, but also hugely imbalancing.

On the other hand, I'm disappointed to see that there is no replacement in place for the Spirit Store high magic ability. High magic in general is really underwhelming in 2.0; I'd been hoping to see Earth casters brought up to where Celestial was in the current system, but it seems the opposite decision was made- to make the Celestial options just as mediocre as Earth.
Click to expand...

That Celestial Armor is pretty sweet, even if it costs 24 Formal.
 
ASFDan said:
On the other hand, I'm disappointed to see that there is no replacement in place for the Spirit Store high magic ability. High magic in general is really underwhelming in 2.0; I'd been hoping to see Earth casters brought up to where Celestial was in the current system, but it seems the opposite decision was made- to make the Celestial options just as mediocre as Earth.
Click to expand...

We are working on new High Magic for Earth Casters. ;-)
 
Yes, please remember that you are playtesting some of the changes. They are not all in the playtest packets yet and some others are still in flux, earth caster high magic among them.
 
HM as of our current rules (even with out the spirit store) is very powerful. With the simple ability to cast a dispel and/or purify while being silenced is extremely powerful (the casters bane in life). The ability to wear additional, over your class limit, for no reason, arcane armor is powerful. The granting of cloaks and banes is very powerful (cloak greater command FTW). All this for free, as a bonus for taking a skill that allows you to make the strongest things in the game, magic items. No other skill grants you an extra bonus just got taking a minimum of 1 and doesn't get stronger as you purchase more of it. HM doesn't need a buff.
 
Gilwing said:
HM as of our current rules (even with out the spirit store) is very powerful. With the simple ability to cast a dispel and/or purify while being silenced is extremely powerful (the casters bane in life). The ability to wear additional, over your class limit, for no reason, arcane armor is powerful. The granting of cloaks and banes is very powerful (cloak greater command FTW). All this for free, as a bonus for taking a skill that allows you to make the strongest things in the game, magic items. No other skill grants you an extra bonus just got taking a minimum of 1 and doesn't get stronger as you purchase more of it. HM doesn't need a buff.
Click to expand...

Beg to differ on this one... Due to the current TP, it's much more like you purchase HM, and occasionally, as a bonus, you get to sit around and do some niche crafting that has an in game time requirement.

With very few exceptions, this is how I've heard formals largely talked about.
 
If you would like to discuss the potential for more high magic changes, please make a new thread.
 
Durnic said:
If you would like to discuss the potential for more high magic changes, please make a new thread.
Click to expand...

Is an Owner inviting a discussion of innovating new mechanics by the forum playerbase? Because if you're going to open that door, I'll totes walk through it.
 
If you want to offer feedback on the playtest high magic, that is a different thread topic. If you want to make suggestions for brand new high magic, contact an owner directly.

I can be that owner.
 
Ok i now understand it more. I don't like it but i understand it.
it just seems that there is no real reason to be a high level formalist anymore. It used to be something i looked at other veteran players after years of work and i wanted to do it also.
I will just have to change the way i play. The real reason im a caster is i have some medical issues that make me not have a lot of stamina and energy, i can't wear chain or plate or even heavy leather armor.
So i play a character that really doesn't have to be on the front lines using my limited energy. So i can stay back and launch spells.
Thanks everyone for explaining it to me. I'm just bummed that i have worked for 3 years on this character for one thing and now i cant do it. I will change it. Maybe go back to earth.
Thanks all i appreciate the help.
Alan
 
My friend, don't be too bummed. I have seen more than one high level celestialist that absolutely murders face using wands and elemental burst pools. Formal celestial casters still have a bevy of tricks up their sleeves that are incredibly powerful, fun, and useful. I think you will especially see this once you realize that, in the new system, formal magic is pretty much the only way to get things like Banes and Cloaks, because times per day magic items of those won't exist anymore.

I can't tell you how to enjoy your character, but I definitely recommend assessing your character in light of all the changes, not just this one change.

-MS
 
ALWEASEL said:
Ok i now understand it more. I don't like it but i understand it.
it just seems that there is no real reason to be a high level formalist anymore. It used to be something i looked at other veteran players after years of work and i wanted to do it also.
I will just have to change the way i play. The real reason im a caster is i have some medical issues that make me not have a lot of stamina and energy, i can't wear chain or plate or even heavy leather armor.
So i play a character that really doesn't have to be on the front lines using my limited energy. So i can stay back and launch spells.
Thanks everyone for explaining it to me. I'm just bummed that i have worked for 3 years on this character for one thing and now i cant do it. I will change it. Maybe go back to earth.
Thanks all i appreciate the help.
Alan
Click to expand...

It's my understanding that there's more High Magic things coming down the pipe that haven't been revealed yet. @Dan Nickname Beshers has foreshadowed this a bit. So, yeah, Golems are going away...but keep an eye out, Scholar Bro! :)
 
Oh. ok. I thought all the adds were done and you were all just tinkering with numbers.
So there is still hope. The prob is i love to do damage. I don't really do much else except maybe commands. I was building my guy to take down the big baddie quick. Maybe i will spell store dragon breaths or something.
Thanks all.
Al
 
If you want to get down to raw numbers:

A C-Caster in the current playtest can dish out around 400 Damage in a single column. Add Potency to that and you get around 550 damage (This is factoring lesser MS and standard MS). They'll still have wands and scrolls on top of that, too.

If you're looking for massive numbers in a single shot, you'll have to use Elemental Burst and have a bunch of columns. But it's attainable, eventually. :)
 
High Magic as a C-Scholar is probably the best around. If you have 20 points in High Magic (60 build) and a 6 column (156 build, including R/W and RM) as a 21st level character, you are throwing up to 60's from your burst pool and you have 500 points to throw from. Par it down to 10's and you have 50 to throw during a weekend.

In 2.0 ten points of damage is going to be very, very good. It may not be as much as your highest level spell but it will be elemental qualifier which means more likely that things will not have the defenses against it.

*Edited for correctness (Thanks Evan)
 
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norman b said:
High Magic as a C-Scholar is probably the best around. If you have 20 points in High Magic (60 build) and a 6 column (156 build, including R/W and RM) as a 21st level character, you are throwing up to 30's from your burst pool and you have 500 points to throw from. Par it down to 10's and you have 50 to throw during a weekend.

In 2.0 ten points of damage is going to be very, very good. It may not be as much as your highest level spell but it will be elemental qualifier which means more likely that things will not have the defenses against it.
Click to expand...

If you have 6 columns, you can throw 60 damage (10 per 9th level spell). Healer's Resolve is 5 per 9th.
 
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