Yin Yong a problem?

Wraith said:
Put like that, I can certainly understand the concern. I'd like to think that we're all forward-thinking enough not to force people into uncomfortable situations like that, although they're already calling upon an unspecified earth spirit to heal people now. ;)
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"Expounding on the no religion clause in the rulebook, when it comes to symbols that have readily or easily recognized out of game significance, if it's something you intend to display or use frequently (such as a book that you're writing notes in, or a shield) it's just better in general to avoid the issue.

There's clearly some leeway; there has to be. If there weren't, we wouldn't be able to have characters with names like Michael, or Catherine, nor would we have such creatures as harpies, golems, or unicorns in our monster database."

Page 1. You'll note that I didn't say religious significance... I just said significance. I'd equally frown at someone with a peace sign on their shield as someone with a christian fish on theirs.

Just like you don't talk about religion or politics at work, it's just better in general to avoid the issue at game. The intent of the rule is to create an environment that is fun for everyone. Some people may find religion fun, many don't. The simplest answer is to just not have it be a factor.
 
Sunnfire said:
Umm...

Actually I'm an Eagle Scout, with palms, Brotherhood in the OA, I could go on.. but its gets a little redundant, and sounds preachy.

Many use schools, and they also typically use non-sanctuary (or equivalent) space in the buildings you mentioned, specifically because they are not aligned to any one religion, and in not being aligned to any religion, they very specifically focus on general spirituality, never naming any particular god, gods, entities, etc.
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What you say is not mutually exclusive with what I said.

And I am OA (Arcoon lodge 369), Dan Bear Training, I was a Patrol Leader, ASM, and SM, and the youngest tenderfoot in scouting, having passed my Tenderfoot test on my 11th birthday (can't get any younger than that).

I also held the New England Flint and Steel championship time of 8.4 seconds, the Quinnipiac Council record for tying the 5 Tenderfoot knots in 31 seconds ... and I could go on, as well, but (as you said) it gets a little redundant.

Phelia
 
Ondreij said:
Um, I guess you where never a Scout.
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Um, I guess you didn't read the very next couple of lines where he already mentioned both the oath and the law?

I don't understand why nearly every time someone mentions the basis from which they're coming you feel the need to whip out a peen-ruler (cold weather, boy scouts, do we not get to hear about your five years in seminary as well?). I don't believe it contributes to the discussion.

wolfan said:
On the same token, people couldn't be offended because you insulted their IG religion.
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I've seen players get offended because I called their character cranky; I don't think ig religion would be any different in that regard.

Dan Nickname Beshers said:
You can symbolize balance with a set of scales
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That one has religious connotations as well.

I seem to recall some symbolism surrounding swords with crossguards, particularly when stood point down, but for the life of me, I can't dig up the reference at the moment. Be that as it may, a sword with a crossguard is "clearly" an attempt to include Christian symbology in the game. Some scholars trace the fleur-de-lis as a Christian symbol as well, yet I tend to see that one used quite a bit.

I think the spirit of the rule is to not go around converting the heathens and forming any form of supernatural organization that persecutes non-believers and/or non-practitioners. Unless it's necromancy. Then it's totally okay. ;)

I think I'll stick with my original assessment. You could use a yin-yang if you wanted, and as long as you're not converting people to serve the one true way or even getting preachy about it. But I think you'd be better off making something up that uses other symbols as influences without being direct conversions, simply because it would be more personal.
 
Any one that is having a problem with non-religious stuff having "god" in it...I will gladly take that off your hands starting with all the "In God We Trust" cash that you have. ;)
 
For the record, (well, for my ego's tender baby skin) I'm aware of the religious significance of scales, but feel it's a deal less obvious than the yin yang symbol and as there are many different ways to draw a set of scales that to the best of my knowledge aren't used by any religion in an iconic fashion, utilizing the idea of balance or justice as represented by measured equality is vague enough to be non-offensive unless someone is actively trying to nitpick. So long as your scales aren't being operated by a dude with a jackal head, I think you'd be in the clear.
 
I was thinking more Libra, less Anubis. ;) We should be clear here, though. The OP is talking about a yin-yang as a marking on his book cover, not a giant shield with it, or something that he stamps into the heads of all the bad, bad people and beasties.

Where I've seen them, we don't sweat tapestries with aum and we don't sweat tibetan prayer flags, because the context is substantially different. If someone wanted to give my barbar some frankincense and myrrh because they think it will somehow improve his natural aromatics, I might be offended, but religion won't enter into it. :)
 
Just because some people get bent out of shape and cry foul at the hint of religion doesn't mean we need to go to an extreme every time questionably religious themes pop up. The original post wasn't insinuating he was going to start a temple of Zen Buddhists. Yin Yang is the basis for many philosophies not religions. Westerners were the ones who tacked on the "religious" label to Chinese philosophy. Yin Yang is also the basis for Chinese medicine and the perception of how opposite forces are interconnected. So should healers all have a western mentality about medicine?

BTW, Argh, atheism is not a religion. I have been hearing that a lot lately and it kinda pisses me off. Just because some atheists have organized doesn't mean they are religious. I don't care if you want to believe in gawd. Go for it. I don't meet with other atheists to talk about how much we think there is no gawd. Please don't lump my lack of faith in with organized religion...

Side note the BSA holds roughly 60% of their meetings in churches and religious buildings. A good friend of mine was kicked out of scouts before he could finish his Eagle Scout badge due to being an atheist. So they do discriminate against non-believers. Small rant off.
 
jpariury said:
I don't believe it contributes to the discussion.
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It sounds like you where never a Debater. I was a Master Debater -- won many regional championships, including high school debates at Brown University and Dartmouth College.

One of the basics of debate is EXPERT OPINION, and demonstrating expertise can be underscored with LIFE EXPERIENCE relevant to the arguement being presented.

If I said, "I think the sky is blue because it is painted because you can't see air", vs. "As a physicist with advanced degrees in optics and nuclear chemistry, I can demonstrate that the sky is blue because the index of refraction of air filters out light in wavelengths other than the blue portion of the spectrum," the latter will be more constructive in contributing to the arguement.

jpariury said:
I don't understand why nearly every time someone mentions the basis from which they're coming you feel the need to whip out a peen-ruler
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And I don't understand why you need to resort to penis-politics just this side of an ad hominum attack.

I guess I should concede to you becasue, after all, you have 4.4878048 times as many posts on these boards than I have posted.

Now, where is that BLOCK button, when you need one.
 
evi1r0n said:
Side note the BSA holds roughly 60% of their meetings in churches and religious buildings. A good friend of mine was kicked out of scouts before he could finish his Eagle Scout badge due to being an atheist. So they do discriminate against non-believers. Small rant off.
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Thank you for proving supporting information which contributes to the conversation.
 
Ondreij said:
I was a Master Debater
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I don't know that I'd go waving that around. I'm told it can cause furry palms and blindness. ;)

One of the basics of debate is EXPERT OPINION, and demonstrating expertise can be underscored with LIFE EXPERIENCE relevant to the arguement being presented.

If I said, "I think the sky is blue because it is painted because you can't see air", vs. "As a physicist with advanced degrees in optics and nuclear chemistry, I can demonstrate that the sky is blue because the index of refraction of air filters out light in wavelengths other than the blue portion of the spectrum," the latter will be more constructive in contributing to the arguement.
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We're not discussing a matter of opinion, though (and I'm pretty sure the nuclear chemistry bit is unrelated). The statement "the sky is blue because the index of refraction of air filters out light in wavelengths other than the blue portion of the spectrum" can stand on its own (or not) without self-aggrandizement. By the same token, the verbiage used in BSA law and the oath are what they are, regardless of whether or not the person citing them is or was a member of of the BSA. It is made no more or less true with the addition of your self-congratulatory back-patting.

If, otoh, you used your personal experience as part of outlining in how the oath and the law are implemented, the masturbatory nature of your ego-pimping might be a bit lessened. i.e. "I've been an active member of the scouts for 15 years both as a child and as a mentor, and in practice, I've seen these segments to mean <blah> and reflected in our regular activities in <such-and-such way>..." is a statement in which the life experience is pertinent to the statement made. In that situation, the statement is made more valid through the addition. The manner in which you try and frame every discussion around some self-perceived achievement, though, comes off much more poncy than I suspect you realize.

I guess I should concede to you becasue, after all, you have 4.4878048 times as many posts on these boards than I have posted.
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Okay, if that's what it takes, I'll accept it. I'm pretty easy going that way.

The BSA has definite religious components. A belief in and duty to a God (in some form) is explictly required. However, they allow for all manner of belief, including the silly Wiccans, (<-- joke) so I'm not sure that they'd balk if Alliance started using some form of game-religion. Has anyone ever actually tested that case?

Atheism is a religion about as much as bald is a hair color. Some people on both sides of the respective fences might like to treat it so, but it doesn't make it one.
 
jpariury said:
Atheism is a religion about as much as bald is a hair color. Some people on both sides of the respective fences might like to treat it so, but it doesn't make it one.
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Thank you. :yes:
 
jpariury said:
Atheism is a religion about as much as bald is a hair color. Some people on both sides of the respective fences might like to treat it so, but it doesn't make it one.
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I'd debate this... but I don't really think its pertinent in this forum.

And while I will neither throw myself a title nor expound upon my years of arguing about crap with people... I've totally done that. :whistle:

Also, please note, my opinion is currently worth approximately 2.47736327 times as much as JP's when voiced on these forums.
 
This thread is exactly why religion is not allowed, and I fully agree with that decision.
 
Ladies and gentlemen,

There's a whole lot of finger pointing, wang-waving and otherwise snarky material in this post. If you can't discuss like polite adults, don't participate. Masking insults with SAT words doesn't make them any less insults. Continued inappropriate posts may result in temporary bans.

That being said, this discussion stopped being about rules a long time ago, and will be moved to off topic.

In short, play nice.
 
Wow.

The fact that such an issue brings up such a debate is one of the reasons we don't want religion in our game.

However, as I've said here before, it is impossible to completely separate religion from mythology, as religion is simply mythology that people still believe. We're going to have some religious aspects of our game no matter what because of the kind of game we are running, with magic, and there will always be someone who thinks we don't go far enough. Some people can be very sensitive ... we can try all we want, but there's always going to be someone who will object.

The goal is (a) to never have any super powerful beings that demand worship -- no creators or churches or clerics or "organized religion"; and (b) avoid religious symbols that may offend those who do believe.

The problem is that there is a lot of gray area in there. Not sure how to solve that problem.

(And for the record, I was a "Life" scout. I was almost an Eagle and then I started High School and got involved with the drama club -- and they had girls. The drama club won.)

(And for the record again, atheism isn't a belief system)
 
Fearless Leader said:
(And for the record again, atheism isn't a belief system)
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methinks a world-view based on the perceptible as opposed to the spiritual is a perfectly valid "belief" system. any group's vision of existence is based on both what it does and does not believe: Pastafarianists DO believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, they DON'T believe in the divinity of Oscar the Grouch; Atheists DO believe in perceptual reaity, they DON'T believe in the preternatural

Fearless Leader said:
as religion is simply mythology that people still believe.
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HAHA - you, sir, are a troublemaker ;)
 
Mobius said:
Atheists DO believe in perceptual reaity, they DON'T believe in the preternatural
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Horse-pucky. I know a number of atheists that believe in chakras, karma, past-life regression, hypnosis, mind-over-matter, telepathy, telekinesis, tarot readings, homeopathy, dualism, and any number of other non-evidenced phenomena. Atheism is a position on a single aspect: the existence of a deity or deities. A lack of belief or outright disbelief in the existence of such is no more a religion that a lack of belief or active disbelief in fairies or zombies.
 
anyone can cite anecdotal evidence contradicting or reinforcing nigh any claim, doesn't change the underlying definition of the term, nor should exceptions to a general rule be used as evidence to disqualify said rule; you could just as easily cite spiritual people who don't believe in certain supernatural forces as evidence they're not religious. and, technically speaking, monotheists 'disbelieve' in 99% of all gods and, as such, are more 'a'-theist than theist. at any rate, i wasn't saying atheists are 'a-religious' i was saying atheists have a belief-system
 
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