[0.10] Constant Damage Scaling

What is a problem about the 1.3 scenario described below?

  • There is no problem. The 1.3 level of constant damage is just fine.

    Votes: 3 6.4%
  • +Damage (Slayer, Damage Aura) Magic Items are a problem and should be toned down or removed.

    Votes: 38 80.9%
  • "double damage from" Vulnerabilities are a problem and should be toned down or removed.

    Votes: 15 31.9%
  • Weapon Proficiency and Backstab are a problem and should be scaled somehow (maybe not 0.10's method)

    Votes: 18 38.3%
  • High Level Characters are a problem and build should be capped so there is an absolute maximum.

    Votes: 19 40.4%
  • Fighter/Rogue skill choice is a problem; if there were more options people wouldn't buy so much dmg

    Votes: 28 59.6%

  • Total voters
    47

Graham Wolsey

Scholar
Denver Staff
Marshal
An option not included in the poll is to adjust scholar spells to scale better. Weakness is a prime example of a spell in need of a rewrite, if it cut a characters damage in half rather than by 5 it would single-handedly solve the problem that is caused by doubling. If Dispel "turned off" all magic items for 10 minutes including carriers on permanent weapons this would also alleviate the problem a good deal.

EDIT: If I were looking to rebalance damage I would start by creating a huge new slate (20+) of new fighter and rogue abilities. Things that aren't just hit it with your weapon and duplicate an already existing magical spell. Then I would only allow the fighter/rogue to purchase backstab or weapon prof based on their total points spent on fighter or rogue skills rather than infinitely. I would not have these increase in cost like they currently do.

After this I would give scholars an ability called "Evocation Focus" which both increases wand damage and causes their evocation spells to deal additional damage. The incants for all evocations spells would now have a number of damage the spell does in the incant so the player taking the effect knows how much they are taking. Purchases of this ability would be capped by number of 9th level spells known.

Finally, I would uncap wand charges, and make them blockable by shields so low level players can throw as many as they want and scholars can never run out of things to do. Throw in a high magic ability that allows wands to function as they do under the current rules a certain number of times per day based on how many levels of Evocation Focus the scholar has.
 
Last edited:

Muir

Fighter
Wands as effectively a bow/crossbow that doesn't require ammo and doesn't benefit from profs/backstabs but rather from a separate skill are good stuff. I'd probably call it 'channeling mastery' instead of evocation, though, and extend them to Earth scholars. Make them just throw for 'magic' instead of carriers, and be effected by earth/chaos/elemental blade spells.

Boom, wands solved.
 

Gilwing

Baron
Alliance Logistics
The rules aren’t centered around PVP. What you’re talking about is an old argument: D&D Fighters don’t duel D&D wizards for a reason.

(Assuming the characters are at least fifth level. 2nd level arcane spells are annoying at best, they’re a far cry from lethal.)
Not talking about pvp at all. Npcs are scholars too. See Auric's post also.

*Edit* I mention 2nd level because at 28 build (I think) you can throw a web with a 55555/4444/333/22/1 and take out the 100th level fighter no matter what side of the fence they are on and u could even do it cheaper at a 4444/333/22/22/1
 
Last edited:

MaxIrons

Squire
Oregon Staff
Marshal
Fighters seems like a straw person argument, yes Fighters are poorly balanced there are literally dozens of threads about how bad they are at everything but static damage in 1.3. Lets talk about a 45th level scholars effect on game balance or even worse a small team of level 45 characters of varying balanced classes.

If you have a problem with characters swinging for 80 effective damage and you don't have a problem with a scholar throwing 80 complete takeouts in the form of Sleep, Confine, and Prison then I don't understand your game design paradigm. The problem is uncapped build especially because people feel entitled to that build and to do with it what they please. If the game wouldn't be as fun for you as a level 2 character than as a level 40 character than there is a problem with the game system. The system should be MOST engaging at low levels because those are the people you need to hook. If the play experience is bad at low levels it needs to be fixed.
While I agree with the sentiment, I didn't touch it as that is a different topic than Polare was asking about.
 

DiscOH

Artisan
Wands as effectively a bow/crossbow that doesn't require ammo and doesn't benefit from profs/backstabs but rather from a separate skill are good stuff. I'd probably call it 'channeling mastery' instead of evocation, though, and extend them to Earth scholars. Make them just throw for 'magic' instead of carriers, and be effected by earth/chaos/elemental blade spells.

Boom, wands solved.

I love this idea as long as it scales significantly worse than martials
 

Muir

Fighter
As long as it scales off of something that doesn't have any other game effects, it's golden. The big problem with wands in 1.3 or .10 isn't that the scale, it's that they scale off of high magic and spells, both of which are super useful and must-haves for their class anyway.

It's like if we threw in free slays for buying profs.
 

Gilwing

Baron
Alliance Logistics
As long as it scales off of something that doesn't have any other game effects, it's golden. The big problem with wands in 1.3 or .10 isn't that the scale, it's that they scale off of high magic and spells, both of which are super useful and must-haves for their class anyway.

It's like if we threw in free slays for buying profs.
Agreed. I'm sure it was mentioned way before the playtest started but why not just make it a build bought skill and have profs for it.
 

Muir

Fighter
I mean, from a design standpoint, I think it's really solid. Our two main mechanics are repeatable damage and one-off effects.

In 1.3 Fighters and Rogues get the opportunity to -buy- one-off effects based on the amount of repeatable damage they have purchased. In .10, they buy one-off effects based on the number of one-off effects -and- profs they've purchased.

In 1.3 and .10, C-scholars get access to free additional one-off effects (wand charges) based on the amount of one-off effects (spells) they have purchased. In .10 this is further emphasized. Earth scholars get a hearty handshake and consignment to the healing back line.


I really like the idea of bringing all the classes in line, so they operate on the same principal of getting repeatable damage in exchange for buying a repeatable damage skill. I might go further and disconnect PTD abilities completely from profs and backstabs, and generate a pyramid for them, so that all the classes operate on the same mechanical paradigm of 'buy repeatable damage, buy one-shot abilities, or buy a mix of the two'.

Scholars with wands that operate like bows and run off of a 'channeling' skill that's prof-equivalent, and fighters and rogues with a memorization-style skill column could be neat ideas. Especially if we just stop counting arrows as items, because that mechanic doesn't add anything but bookkeeping for anyone.
 
Last edited:

Muir

Fighter
This actually inspired me to do a bit of writing, so here's a rough example of what I mean with a few ideas tacked on. The Fighter and Rogue trees could use more beefing out, as we don't really have that much for them that isn't always on effects.


Fighter
Constant Damage:
Critical Attack - +1 to all attacks for 10 minutes
Weapon Proficiency - +1 to all attacks, +3/2 for two handed weapons

F1 : Disarm, Hearty, Intercept
F2 : Slay, Parry, Improved Slay
F3 : Shatter, Resolute
F4 : Riposte, Mettle, Mending
F5 : Eviscerate, Provoke


Rogue
Constant Damage:
Back Attack - +2 to all melee attacks from behind, +1 to bow/crossbow/thrown weapon attacks for 10 minutes
Backstab - +2 to all melee attacks from behind, +1 to bow/crossbow/thrown weapon attacks

R1 : Disarm, Waylay
R2 : Evade, Assassinate, Improved Assassinate
R3 : Knock/Bar Portal, Shatter
R4 : Counteract, Dodge
R5 : Terminate, Wary


Celestial Scholar
Constant Damage:
Power Surge - +1 to wand damage for 10 minutes per activation
Power Channeling - +1 to all wand attacks
Signature Spell - On the fly, convert a spell slot to an Evocation Bolt dealing level x 5 damage of the element of caster's choice <alternatively, go with .10 and add Evocation Bolt to each level with a power of level x 5>

C1 : Disarm, Light, Fortress, Lesser Investment
C2 : Weapon Shield, Repel, Slow, Mend Armor
C3 : Bind, Shatter, Wall of Force, Solidify
C4 : Awaken, Banish, Enhanced Blade, Shun
C5 : Release, Spell Shield, Subjugate, Lesser Magic Storm
C6 : Elemental Shield, Sleep, Wizard Lock
C7 : Confine, Charm, Knock, Bar Portal
C8 : Dispel, Reflect, Stun Limb
C9 : Circle of Power, Magic Storm, Prison, Ward

Earth Scholar
Constant Damage:
Power Surge - +1 to wand damage for 10 minutes per activation
Power Channeling - +1 to all wand attacks
Signature Spell - On the fly, convert a spell slot to a Cure/Harm spell dealing level x 5 Chaos or Healing at caster's choice <alternatively, go with .10 and add Cure/Harm to each level with a power of level x 5>

E1 : Disarm, Endow, Turn/Control Undead
E2 : Weapon Shield, Slow, Repel
E3 : Bind, Sanctuary/Desecrate, Weakness, Shatter
E4 : Awaken, Cleanse, Cure/Cause Disease, Poison Shield, Shun
E5 : Release, Silence, Spell Shield, Lesser Earth/Chaos Storm, Mending
E6 : Earth/Chaos Blade, Elemental Shield, Sleep, Wither/Restore Limbs
E7 : Charm, Confine, Destroy/Create Undead, Destruction
E8 : Purify/Drain, Reflect Spell, Paralysis
E9 : Circle of Power, Earth/Chaos Storm, Death, Life/Corrupt

Notes: Memorization of lower tier abilities in higher slots works for fighter and rogue abilities as well, as does the option to build columns or a pyramid. Scouts, Spellswords, and Adepts have more bookeeping in exchange for utility. Artisans don't interact with any of the above for the most part. More Fighter and Rogue abilities would be good, as well as a High Magic equivalent that is used to create Formal Blacksmithing and Formal Alchemy as well as giving abilities similar to Celestial/Earth High Magic.

New Abilities:
Knock (C7, R3) - Remove one tagged lock instantly as if it had been successfully picked by the caster.
Bar Portal (C7, R3) - Lock one closeable item or door as if held by a physical lock. Lock may be removed with Knock, or by standard picking. As per ward, caster is responsible for a note or tag indicating the lock OOG. Duration: 5 days
Mending (F4, E5) - Repair one shattered or destroyed standard production weapon, shield, or suit of armor for the remainder of the logistics period, after which it crumbles unstoppably to dust.
Wary (R5) - Smart Defense representing a Rogue's anticipation of cunning tricks. When struck by a trap, call 'Wary' as a defense and take no effect.
Provoke (F5) - Blade-delivered Charm effect, requires enemy effected focus on the wielder in combat. LoS rules apply.
 
Last edited:

Muir

Fighter
That's kind of what I'm doing. Nothing is changing, complication wise in play, with how Fighter and Rogue work in the layout I just dropped. All that changes is how you battleboard it, and that is a simplification because it consolidates with caster spells.
 

Saephis

Squire
I think by making Fighters and Rogues far more complicated than they are now, it makes it that much more difficult to get a new player involved.
Fighters/Scouts/Rogues are already needlessly complicated, with Back and Critical Attack purchases moving on and off a card with Backstab and Weapon Proficiency. Thinking back years ago, I avoided buying Critical Attack because the buy-trade-in-other-cost setup we're apparently delving *deeper* into with these various 2.0 proposals makes me worry that new players will just check out all together.

While I can appreciate the desire to keep NPC cards simple, you don't have to write skills on them, either. "You're a human with 10 body and swing for 3" is actually more simple than "You're a human of X level, meaning Y body, and you have a weapon proficiency and 2 critical attacks".

Explaining to a new player, additionally, that because they want to swing a stick, rather than throw birdseed, they get a quarter the abilities and even fewer options as their birdseed-chucking-counterparts will further alienate players and skew demographics in the favor of non-martial builds.
 

Gilwing

Baron
Alliance Logistics
I'm all for taking a dump on 2.0 but was/is it really that hard to remember if you have 1-4 crit attacks?
When i played a fighter we had less skills to purchase. Slay/parry any one? 1.3 has more things for fighters to remember, which I don't think is hard to remember either.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
I'm all for taking a dump on 2.0 but was/is it really that hard to remember if you have 1-4 crit attacks?
No. And, frankly, a lot of people just opt to save 15/18 build and not bother with Crits/Back Attacks anyways.
 

Saephis

Squire
I'm all for taking a dump on 2.0 but was/is it really that hard to remember if you have 1-4 crit attacks?
When i played a fighter we had less skills to purchase. Slay/parry any one? 1.3 has more things for fighters to remember, which I don't think is hard to remember either.
Remembering 1-4, sure, but trying to explain "Weapon Proficiencies cost X, but you have to trade in 4 Critical Attacks to buy it, but you can also just skip those and go straight to the Prof" doesn't explain very well for, you know, rules. If we're going with "Okay, but buy like eighty Critical Attacks so you can occasionally-enough do damage and use abilities", it gets so much worse.

"Oh no, more than five abilities" doesn't seem like a very great hill to make your stand on, I guess is my point.
 
That's kind of what I'm doing. Nothing is changing, complication wise in play, with how Fighter and Rogue work in the layout I just dropped. All that changes is how you battleboard it, and that is a simplification because it consolidates with caster spells.
I know I am quoting the wrong message, but the other one is long and would require a lot more work to quote usefully.

Magic Key used to exist as a spell. It was level 4 or 5 if I remember correctly. It was removed specifically because it completely negated the value of an entire skill. The same logic seems to apply today and I can't see a reason to let the spell back in the game, even if it is a level 7 spell.

-MS
 

Muir

Fighter
I know I am quoting the wrong message, but the other one is long and would require a lot more work to quote usefully.

Magic Key used to exist as a spell. It was level 4 or 5 if I remember correctly. It was removed specifically because it completely negated the value of an entire skill. The same logic seems to apply today and I can't see a reason to let the spell back in the game, even if it is a level 7 spell.

-MS
I think the bigger issue it solves is that there is absolutely no reason for anyone but rogues to engage with traps or locks as it stands. Shatter solves locks in .10 so long as you don't care what happens to anything they are built into, same as Shatter/Destroy do in 1.3. Having more answers than 'God I hope someone at game took ledgerdemain' means plot teams can feel free to put more locks in game without having them become a bottleneck that grinds a mod to a halt.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
I think the bigger issue it solves is that there is absolutely no reason for anyone but rogues to engage with traps or locks as it stands. Shatter solves locks in .10 so long as you don't care what happens to anything they are built into, same as Shatter/Destroy do in 1.3. Having more answers than 'God I hope someone at game took ledgerdemain' means plot teams can feel free to put more locks in game without having them become a bottleneck that grinds a mod to a halt.
Agreed.
 

PirateFox

Scholar
As someone who takes legerdemain, I actually hate having shatter bypass legerdemain. What's the point of locks--a large build expenditure, and (in some chapters) OOG skill requirements--if someone's existing spell bypasses it? And a spell that's useful for a ton of other things at that (shatter, not magic key)? Mitigates the feel of team and needing rogues. Pet peeve. Agreed that we don't want the situation that every mod needs XYZ skill, but we do want ways for skill choices to shine, not be viewed as total wastes, because every caster can do it cheaper.
 

Ruki

Scholar
Slightly off topic...but man, I am so glad that I don't need OOG skill to pick locks in game. I do not have the most nimble of hands (and sometimes still struggle with the screws)
 
Top