[.10] - Relics impressions
- Thread starter Draven
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Saephis
Virtuous
Solution #1: Make Potions only usable by Earth, the same as Scrolls are only usable by Celestial, as this also limits the usefulness of Earth casters.
Solution #2: Keep Elixirs usable by anyone, for the lower level needs of "We don't have one of those" (that's always the argument that's come up with).
Solution #3: Eliminate Binding as a spell type and make it unique to Earth relics.
Followup question for those that don't like #3: Are you a Celestialist that memorizes Binding frequently, relying on your Wand for damage?
Solution #2: Keep Elixirs usable by anyone, for the lower level needs of "We don't have one of those" (that's always the argument that's come up with).
Solution #3: Eliminate Binding as a spell type and make it unique to Earth relics.
Followup question for those that don't like #3: Are you a Celestialist that memorizes Binding frequently, relying on your Wand for damage?
Muir
Elite
Potions have nothing to do with Expanded Enchant, though, which was the topic.
They're the replacement for expanded enchant, as far as low-level healing goes.
Inaryn
Virtuoso
It doesn't happen in SF... I couldn't tell you the precise bit of logic as to why... I'm sure people have different reasons. But it's not something that I've ever seen as part of the healer social dynamic. I've *totally* seen it in WA and OR, in fact, was ripped pretty hard for it bitd.
As long time earth caster... relics as they are in this version are meh. I'd still find them kind of meh at 10 seconds, but would at least include them in my kit just in case. The chances of me actually using one are pretty slim, even at 10 seconds... and I *TOTALLY* managed a break command on someone who was berserked back when I was playing my biata. (That was a fun scene...
)Honestly, I don't feel like Earth magic needs more power. It already has the glorious title of being the reason we don't all die. But, it's boring, and people *do* end up feeling like they *have* to take healing spells over other choices. Further, I think it's high time we recognize that Earth and Celestial are actually sub-classes. Let Celestial have it's vancian memorization and wands. Wands get to be their trade off for having to prepare their spells. Then, you let Earth flex-cast, so they get a bonus for preparing their spells, but aren't penalized for deciding that it might be nice to have a paralysis just in case they get caught alone.
I mean, our system puts both Earth and Celestial under one heading as scholars... but, really, they aren't the same class at all. If you take the time to look at it from that perspective, it makes a lot more sense for how to balance the two types of magic.
Here are three of the most common complaints I have seen in this thread, and accompanying solutions.
Problem: Earth scholars unfairly encouraged to take life spells over offensive spells when they may not want to.
Solution: Remove life as a castable spell. Now life is a relic spell, caster receives one per 25XP in earth scholarly skills (the cost of a single column). New players will get access to life spells at an earlier rate, won't change the access to life spells for high level players. Treats column/pyramid builders the same. Free's up 9th level slots for other uses (COP, death, earth storm, 45 healing). Can be thrown or touchcast.
Problem: Earth scholars don't want to be pigeon-holed into being only healbots.
Solution: Relic charges used to create a new effect called "rebuke". Forces target to take 2 steps away from caster. Crowd control option. Charges gained at same rate as wand charges. A ritual allows more charges to be expended at one time to create a more powerful crowd control effect (slow, repel, or shun, ect).
Problem: Earth scholars want to be treated the same as celestial scholars.
Solution: Relics are effectively the same as wands. Deal healing/chaos interchangeably. Scale as a wand would. Used to heal/damage based on creature.
Problem: Earth scholars unfairly encouraged to take life spells over offensive spells when they may not want to.
Solution: Remove life as a castable spell. Now life is a relic spell, caster receives one per 25XP in earth scholarly skills (the cost of a single column). New players will get access to life spells at an earlier rate, won't change the access to life spells for high level players. Treats column/pyramid builders the same. Free's up 9th level slots for other uses (COP, death, earth storm, 45 healing). Can be thrown or touchcast.
Problem: Earth scholars don't want to be pigeon-holed into being only healbots.
Solution: Relic charges used to create a new effect called "rebuke". Forces target to take 2 steps away from caster. Crowd control option. Charges gained at same rate as wand charges. A ritual allows more charges to be expended at one time to create a more powerful crowd control effect (slow, repel, or shun, ect).
Problem: Earth scholars want to be treated the same as celestial scholars.
Solution: Relics are effectively the same as wands. Deal healing/chaos interchangeably. Scale as a wand would. Used to heal/damage based on creature.
DiscOH
Adept
As a bindomancer celestialist, I went C caster for the rituals and flavor. I think wands are boring and I don't use mine. If we want something dead, let the archers deal with it.
I am not, however, a level 50 wizard with unlimited wand charges.
In general I think people overvalue damage in combats.
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Tantarus
Virtuoso
Unless your chapter is bloated out in HP to some extreme, fighters swinging 20s and wands hitting for 20 can grind down alot. Esp the mid teir things, saving the KOs for the big bad.
Samyania
Adept
Damage is definitely going to look undervalued for your first... A bunch of levels. Especially if one of the campaigns you play in is statted more for the level 30+ (like @Tantarus ) than for the level 10 and under (like @DiscOH ... I think? Unless you've been blanketing like crazy somehow). So it's kind of a matter of perspective. Also if your plot team tends to stat for creative solutions more than beating a problem until it stops moving, which is definitely the case in ASF.
Draven
Pioneer
A wizard around level 9 is only going to be shooting for about 3 points of Wand damage, assuming hyperfocus on Celestial slots (getting things like a weapon skill and shield can really, really delay your growth as a caster #mylife). But throw in a full four column, 12 Formals into Burst Pool, and get yourself a Greater +3 Wand? You go from 3 to double-digits real fast.
If you see a lot of NPC shields in your chapter, those wand charges become even better. And foundation elementals? Oh maaaaaaaan, Enhance Wand means that you're going to be chucking 20s -minimum- by picking the right element. And you can accomplish all of this by level 15. (100 pts in Celestial slots, 36 points in 12 Formal, 7 for Pre-reqs). At 156 Build, you can accomplish all of that, plus have Shield and Small Weapon (or, if an Elf, you could have Archery and 3x Craftsman: Tea Drinker).
Bindomancy is great, but it's got limitations. A monster might be immune to Bindomancy, or it might have a bunch of dodges/phases, or it might just have enough strength to rip free. That doesn't make Bindomancy bad (I use it myself), but damage is consistent and efficient, and it doesn't really hurt all that much if it's wasted on a miss or a negation.
I really think that problem one and two are very similar problems that the first solution fixes. By no longer having my 9th level spells dictated to me, I'm allowed to make choices that can trickle down my entire pyramid. A rebuke wand wouldn't on its own do much of anything. "Steps" as a measurement are extremely subjective and I don't think yo-yoing someone is going to be engaging for anyone involved. If we as earth casters really want damage, let us throw healer's resolve at undead. It gives us niche damage against one type of enemy that we should be the experts in killing anyway. Yes that would let necromancers chuck chaos at people, they already can with Cause spells and it still comes with all the risks involved with that. There's no reason we can't have life relics and throwable healer's resolve. Its not going to unbalance the game or make fighters/rogues worthless. Its going to smooth our gameplay, give us more options and maybe entice a few more people into support roles.
Draven
Pioneer
IMO, I don't think we need to be able to throw our pool. One of my original solutions was to absorb Healer's Resolve into Earth Wands.
Being able to throw our pool against Undead would be cool, sure, but...eh. I'd rather just put an Earth Blade on a fighter and let them do the heavy lifting. But that's just me.
Being able to throw our pool against Undead would be cool, sure, but...eh. I'd rather just put an Earth Blade on a fighter and let them do the heavy lifting. But that's just me.
Draven
Pioneer
Admittedly, my approach might be different than yours. I don't perceive a lack of range effects to really be the issue that Earth has; I perceive Earth's issue to lie in resource imbalance and social pressure to memorize healing/Life. So the solutions I present focus on resolving those two issues; I don't generally want to ask for more than I feel is necessary, because there's such a thing as trying to do too much.
You know, I'm going just going to have to agree with you. Maybe its overstepping and trying to get too much all at once. The throwable pool isn't really a priority, and feels like such a small change that advocating for it shouldn't hurt our larger goals, but resource imbalance and social pressure over spell choice are far greater concerns. If we're only getting one, lets fix the bigger problems.
Thanks for the feedback. The only way I see to change the rebuke then would be to have to be a act as a 3 second shun. I would think that most NPC's would take one or two of those, then go try and find easier targets, not hit their head on the wall until the caster runs out of charges.
Tying life to relics as I suggested would fix this perceived imbalance.
Greater wand is going away. Burst pool damage bonus to wands is going away. Wand damage output is going to decrease, and again, not all chapters and especially not all characters have access to the rituals you mentioned. I understand that most players that are active in this section of the forum have been playing for a very long time and have a very high level, but I would think that is not the norm for alliance, and I would assume is more of an edge case.
What is the APL of alliance as a whole? Is that something that someone important could provide to us?
Draven
Pioneer
Ish. It would help, yes, but only with 9ths. So more Earth Casters would be memorizing Death spells, sure, but it doesn't help with any other slot, or with general healing.
I mean, don't get me wrong, if I got free Life spells sitting in a pocket, I'm never memorizing Life spells for other people again (Rebirth, though...).
But I really want to be able to be a CC Bindomancy/Cursecaster, but I can't do that nearly as effectively if I'm also memorizing Protectives (because I like surviving) and Healing (because people get hurt and expect me to fix them).
Edit: as for the APL of Alliance as a whole, I doubt that's available; APL is a really, really fluid term. Even if someone loaded the entire database of Alliance, there's a whole lot of inactive characters in that database (or people with backup characters just sitting around). I don't think you'd get the info you're looking for.
If you've got a 4 column, under the new proposed spells/slot layout you can take this:
- 4x healing 5
- 4x weapon shield
- 4x bind
- 4x poison shield
- 4x spell shield
- 4x elemental shield
- 4x confine
- 4x paralysis
- 4x death