[.9] Flurry 3

mythic

Knight
Owner
Calgary Staff
Hi folks!

I've been asked to help explain some of the minutia of Flurry 3. Up here in Calgary we started using it years back due to very inclement weather. Fighting on ice and snow holds a bit more challenges than dry dirt or grass.

The basics you need to understand are that safety and "fair play" come into the forefront. Now, I have been to many chapters, several National events and of course heading to Big West. I have seen monsters and players basically "overwhelm" others with constant barrages of attacks. In this game, we have to call defenses as well as offenses. If this were the "real world" we would just swing and let our abilities dictate if we win. We cannot do this in Alliance (or most LARPs).

So what we have done up here is "3 and out". Attack up to 3 times and then just pause. Let you opponent respond in kind. Allow each other to call your defenses. Take a step back (helps eliminate charging) take a breath. Banter with the bad guy. Allow some RP of the combat (grunts of pain, rubbing the spot that just got hit etc.) It makes for a more thematic fight than just swinging for the fences. It slows our combat down allowing each person time to process all the hits/spells/effects.

This playtest we have included ALL ATTACKS. This is again to stop the rapid fire of spells and globes. Let your opponent process the hits, call their defenses and then carry on.

When we say "reset your stance" this means check your footing, check your charge distance and make sure your opponent does the same. Again, this boils down to safety. Wet conditions are just as bad as ice and snow. Our area has grass that butts onto asphalt. When it rains, the asphalt is just a slippery as grass.

For a monster: You can attack multiple opponents 3 times each. Attack one, then switch your target and attack 3 more times, rinse and repeat. It's usually the monsters that are ganged up on. So having each opponent only throwing a few attacks and then letting off allows the NPC time to process, respond and continue.

We find this rule to be extremely helpful to new players. They do not get overwhelmed by attacks as often. It allows them to process what has hit them, clarify any rules etc. Nothing sucks more than to walk out to an encounter and get curb stomped over and over. It does help with player retention.

And yes, there are times when we do not hold fast to the 3 and out. If I am fighting our "veteran" players, we go at our own pace, BUT when it comes to slippery conditions even we abide by the 3 and out.
 

Tantarus

Squire
So when you say "reset your stance" this means check your footing, check your charge distance and make sure your opponent does the same.

I am having a hard time visualizing how this works in many circumstances. Such as when giving chase. If you are chasing down a fleeing opponent you have to pause the pursuit every 3 strikes?

And same with spells, how long do you have to pause between throwing spells? The vague terms and how to apply the pause seems like an issue to me.

Also in general what counts as an attack, anything with a verbal? Does feigning attacks count?

What is the remedy for people not following the flurry rule? Does the target get to ignore attacks past the 3rd, are those abilities still used by the attack? Who makes the call what is enough of a pause?

I am really intrigued by this rule/idea but not sure it is fully practical in our system. I do think if it applies to melee it should apply to spells otherwise casters are at a big advantage against melee as they melee would be forced to slow the attack.

That said I would consider this the biggest change of 2.0 as it changed the pace and flow of combat a lot.
 

mythic

Knight
Owner
Calgary Staff
If you are running after someone, that pace will likely dictate itself. Running and swinging/ throwing is challenging enough that you likely not rapid strike.

Between spells? Again, let the person acknowledge the spells, call defenses (take the hits) and then go again. In the meantime you can goad them, move around etc. make it more theatric than just whipping a chain of packets.

If someone is not following the flurry, we still take the hits, but remind them to pace themselves. The other player usually just backs off, gives an acknowledgment and then play continues.

It becomes s rhythm. It's very odd at first, but once you are used to it (like we are) then the opposite happens and it really throws us off when someone blasts off a huge chain of attacks.
 

Cedric

Rogue
Marshal
Dystopia Rising (another larp that uses the flurry rule) suggests one second between 3 attacks, which is reasonable (and you do get into a rhythm).
 

Tantarus

Squire
If you are running after someone, that pace will likely dictate itself. Running and swinging/ throwing is challenging enough that you likely not rapid strike.
The rule states 3 swings then pause, it does not say anything about 3 swings in X time frame? So regardless of pace you should have to pause after 3 attacks when chasing a person (or any other combat) right?

Also not everyone runs the same speed some of us have a bit of girth and are older. Damn young kids can easily keep pace and swing repeatedly on some of us. So again do they have to pause and step back when giving chase after 3 attacks?

For reference
"For this Playtest, we’re asking all Playtesters to use a Flurry rule for all attacks (weapon and packet both). This is intended as a constant change to Alliance combat in which players take no more than three consecutive attacks (weapon strikes and/or packet attacks) before pausing and resetting their combat stance. All players involved in a combat should adhere to this rule."
 
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Tantarus

Squire
Also I notice it says nothing about changing targets resetting the flurry counter as you mentioned in your first post.

It says after 3 attacks/spells in a row, you must pause. does not have any language about same or different targets. Timing between attacks, etc.
 

Avaran

Baron
So...you take turns attacking? You hit three, back off...let them hit three, they back off? Or am I reading that wrong?
 

Tantarus

Squire
So...you take turns attacking? You hit three, back off...let them hit three, they back off? Or am I reading that wrong?
Yeah I was kinda wondering that myself after reading,

So what we have done up here is "3 and out". Attack up to 3 times and then just pause. Let you opponent respond in kind.
I kinda assume I am just misunderstanding that statement.
 

Chris Rudd

Newbie
Calgary Staff
So...you take turns attacking? You hit three, back off...let them hit three, they back off? Or am I reading that wrong?
Not really it is just a pause between Flurries to allow defenses to be called. I have had situations where I hit 3 times paused a second and then hit 3 again. It really just is a good way to prevent machine gun swinging/throwing. I know as an archer I can throw really fast but can the PC/NPC I'm fighting keep track of all the hits? My guess is probably not. This allows the fight to go smoothly and defenses to be used quicker. I hope this helps.
 

Eldor

Artisan
I do not know the exact wording that the flurry rule has, in the chapters that use it, but here is my submission.

When in combat, do not direct more than three attacks (Melee and/or Packet) against a single target without pausing your attacks against that target for 2-3 seconds before you continue attacking them.


This relieves all the issues I have seen brought up.
 

Tantarus

Squire
That seems to fix/answer most my questions about how this works. Assuming this is how they want it to function. Fixes issues with chasing, target switching, defines what a "pause" or "reset your stance" means.

Though perhaps there should be a remedy for when the rule is violated, like if no pause is given attacks after three are not counted?
 

Durnic

Squire
Owner
Oregon Staff
Marshal
Do the same thing now as if you geting machine gunned. Step back, tell them you won't be taking those last couple of hits because they didn't pause between their three attacks and then continued.
 

Eldor

Artisan
The question does then come up though, do we consider an attack as an attempted attack (Feigning an attack, or Missed with Weapon and/or Packet), or a successful hit with (Melee and/or Packet), even if the hit did not or could not have caused an effect or damage.

My assumption would be that we should consider any attempted attack, as this sticks more to the rule of "do not direct more than three attacks against a single target". as I would view feigning an attack as an intentionally missed attack.
 

Tantarus

Squire
Do the same thing now as if you geting machine gunned. Step back, tell them you won't be taking those last couple of hits because they didn't pause between their three attacks and then continued.
That is what I would have thought, but I did ask earlier and the reply was:

If someone is not following the flurry, we still take the hits, but remind them to pace themselves. The other player usually just backs off, gives an acknowledgment and then play continues.
You're statement seems to contradict his statement on this matter though. Hence the confusion.
 
Also chiming in from the Calgary chapter...

Part of it may be that we've developed and encouraged a culture of brief flurries with a short breather to call defenses/add up damage/etc., but pretty much everyone follows this rule without much issue; fighting is still fluid and quick, and the small pauses mean you have time to see if an effect landed or popped a defense before throwing something else.

On the few occasions where someone does go a little more gung-ho and doesn't give a break, asking them to slow down usually does the trick; if they persist, the general rule is to tell them you're only taking the first few hits and ignoring everything after that while you call defenses, and telling them to slow down again.

I'm not aware of any machine-gunning in our chapter that wasn't rectified by this procedure at least in the short term, and new players tend to appreciate the pauses while they get used to combat and adopt the flurry method rather quickly on their own.
 

Tantarus

Squire
I think that is great and look forward to trying it, but in chapters that have not used flurry rules for over 20 years of play. The wording is going to have to be a bit more precise and less vague, I suspect. It is a pretty big adjustment for many of us.
 

Gilwing

Baron
Alliance Logistics
If its 3v1 does each person get 3 swings or does the group of 3 get 1 swing? I would assume all get 3 swings each since the same would apply to the lone person would get 3 on each target (which was mentioned before).
 

mythic

Knight
Owner
Calgary Staff
All get 3 swings/attacks.

@Eldor that is a good way of putting it.

When in combat, do not direct more than three attacks (Melee and/or Packet) against a single target without pausing your attacks against that target for 2-3 seconds before you continue attacking them.


@Polare does this work better for the wording on Flurry? If so, can we update the packet?
 
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Polare

Count
Alliance Rules
Moderator
Seattle Staff
Updated the document. Flurry now reads as follows:

For this Playtest, we’re asking all Playtesters to use a Flurry rule for all attacks (weapon and packet both). This is intended as a constant change to Alliance combat. Under the Flurry rule, a player should not direct more than three consecutive attacks (weapon strikes and/or packet attacks in any combination) against a single target before pausing to let the target call defenses and, if appropriate, reset their combat stance. Individual deliberate strikes which give enough time between them for a target to call defenses need not be counted as part of a Flurry. All players involved in a combat should adhere to this rule. The intent is that no player should be so “overwhelmed” calling defenses that they cannot apply their own offensive abilities.
Note that the intent is clearly stated here, and as with anything where the intent is stated we expect players to be good sports and try to adhere to that intent even where the text may not cover every conceivable circumstance.

Thanks,
-Bryan
 

Tevas

Scholar
Marshal
Playtest Community Manager
I strongly believe that the duration of a "pause" needs to be clearly defined. As combat speeds vary widely from individual to individual, and across chapter cultures, this metric in its current form is too subjective. What constitutes a reasonable break in the cadence of the fight will never be the same between involved parties, and as a result would greatly benefit from standardization so as to ensure common implementation across all combats and between all combatants.
 
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