[.11] A case for "Prepare to Die" incants

Feldor

Scholar
I'd like to suggest that the removal of the "Prepare to Die" incants has removed opportunities to build tension and use tactics in combat.

An active slay is an active threat. Knowing the opponent has it active, adds tension and lets a single combatant be a more active threat to multiple opponents. It also allows the use of tactics (like having the person with an active magic armor or a use of resolute) to absorb the threat, so as to enable others to attack.


As an example of a situation that happened in our most recent game. It was 4pm on a Saturday and we were returning from a significantly difficult most-of-the-town mod, and we were having to fight our way back. At the front of the group, a high-stat-card melee monster was preventing us from advancing while we were harried from the back and sides. It was facing off against the 2-3 folks at the front of the group swinging 20+, and it activated a prepare-to-die. All of the front group heavy hitters immediately went on the defensive, because defenses were running low and we'd seen this opponent throw 110 slay already. A low build templar stepped in, provoked the attack relying on the just cast magic armor, and then retreated as the monster attempted to chase them down -- but it also let the heavy hitters all re-engage; and let the group continue the fighting retreat towards town again.


That entire scene and tactics would not have been able to happen if it was the case that the monster just had a few "+110 damage" attacks. It relied on the explicit threat of the active slay -- it let that one monster actively threaten 3 significant fighters at once, in a way that just having 1 remaining slay did not. It also relied on knowing the next swing was going to have a slay on it, to enable someone to draw out the sacrificial attack.
 

DeSylvia

Newbie
I would respectively say the issue with the PTD incantation is the exact situation you just described. I don't think it makes sense thematically either, in that I must notify my opponents I'm going in for a big swing.

Full transparency, I play a fighter.
 

PirateFox

Scholar
For a fighter, the removal of PTD is a blessing and they argued hardest for it in the discussions I saw. For everyone else it changes the entire course of the game. No more backpacking. Magic armor is useless (you can't generally cast it before you're surprise-hit). And triple-tapping someone with PTD skills insta-gibs them.

Using the thematic argument is silly. This is a game. We have piles of game mechanics that don't make sense, and making the game more fun--not just higher-paced--should be a goal.
 

DeSylvia

Newbie
No more backpacking is hardly the case, if anything it asks for more backpacking as apparently your fighter is out of defensive and thus needs a healer when fighting something scary. If you think magic armor is now useless you are lacking creativity assuming you only view it as a combat spell. I would say triple tap any one shot is generally gonna work outside extenuating circumstances. I do think thematics matter seeing as we do what we can within the system to make things more immersive, and in the case of fun I stand by what I said. As a fighter it sure is anti fun if I have a PTD, and someone walks up with a magic armor and puts on their best victim voice "oh please oh please dont hurt me!" While their sole purpose in life is to stand in front of me not allowing a pass etc. It calls for more group play as a whole, which is a good thing I feel.
 

Gilwing

Baron
Alliance Logistics
No more backpacking is hardly the case, if anything it asks for more backpacking as apparently your fighter is out of defensive and thus needs a healer when fighting something scary. If you think magic armor is now useless you are lacking creativity assuming you only view it as a combat spell. I would say triple tap any one shot is generally gonna work outside extenuating circumstances. I do think thematics matter seeing as we do what we can within the system to make things more immersive, and in the case of fun I stand by what I said. As a fighter it sure is anti fun if I have a PTD, and someone walks up with a magic armor and puts on their best victim voice "oh please oh please dont hurt me!" While their sole purpose in life is to stand in front of me not allowing a pass etc. It calls for more group play as a whole, which is a good thing I feel.
The bigger question is why aren't you fighting with some one. I call PTD, my teammate hits my target to blow the magic armor and I hit em with my PTD skill. Better yet, I call PTD, my opponent opens up because as you put it, they put their best victim role on (I've seen it too. It's funny). My then teammate or even me will then tag em with a spell or gas. Yea. Thanks for playing hehehe.

There is always a solution and most of the time it's solved with teamwork.
 

PirateFox

Scholar
No more backpacking is hardly the case, if anything it asks for more backpacking as apparently your fighter is out of defensive and thus needs a healer when fighting something scary. If you think magic armor is now useless you are lacking creativity assuming you only view it as a combat spell. I would say triple tap any one shot is generally gonna work outside extenuating circumstances. I do think thematics matter seeing as we do what we can within the system to make things more immersive, and in the case of fun I stand by what I said. As a fighter it sure is anti fun if I have a PTD, and someone walks up with a magic armor and puts on their best victim voice "oh please oh please dont hurt me!" While their sole purpose in life is to stand in front of me not allowing a pass etc. It calls for more group play as a whole, which is a good thing I feel.
I really don't even know where to start with that reply. Going to try, though!
- You can't counteract things for other people preemptively, but you say that leads to more backpacking? That makes no sense. More backpack healing sure. Your example only mentions healing. I was speaking more generally of the commonly-accepted meaning of backpacking. If you want to limit this to healbotting...yeah, 2.0 definitely improves the need for that!
- Magic Armor only as a non-combat skill. Expecting Waylay much? The primary physical defense skill relegated to non-combat is...wow. That's a confusing argument. I guess I'm just plain uncreative.
- Immersive is what I live for, but in the end, we're trying to improve a game. If we're going with pure immersion, magic needs to go, archery needs a nerf, alchemy needs to go...you get my point there?
- That last section honestly comes across as whining that fighters can't dominate fights, while saying we need more group play. Group play means that they should be able to "you shall not pass" you as a fighter sometimes. Smart use of skills to mitigate a threat is good group play. I'm not sure what group play you're imagining where no one can stop a PTD, no one ever blocks your path, and all your abilities are takeouts. That seems seriously not-groupy.

Care to clarify any of those, or just leave them as-is?
 

DeSylvia

Newbie
I really don't even know where to start with that reply. Going to try, though!
- You can't counteract things for other people preemptively, but you say that leads to more backpacking? That makes no sense. More backpack healing sure. Your example only mentions healing. I was speaking more generally of the commonly-accepted meaning of backpacking. If you want to limit this to healbotting...yeah, 2.0 definitely improves the need for that!
- Magic Armor only as a non-combat skill. Expecting Waylay much? The primary physical defense skill relegated to non-combat is...wow. That's a confusing argument. I guess I'm just plain uncreative.
- Immersive is what I live for, but in the end, we're trying to improve a game. If we're going with pure immersion, magic needs to go, archery needs a nerf, alchemy needs to go...you get my point there?
- That last section honestly comes across as whining that fighters can't dominate fights, while saying we need more group play. Group play means that they should be able to "you shall not pass" you as a fighter sometimes. Smart use of skills to mitigate a threat is good group play. I'm not sure what group play you're imagining where no one can stop a PTD, no one ever blocks your path, and all your abilities are takeouts. That seems seriously not-groupy.

Care to clarify any of those, or just leave them as-is?
Sure, backpacking is still totally a thing given that there are more ways to fight then just physical and healing is on of the most integral parts of backpacking, though you may disagree. You can absolutely counteract things, hence why we as a game have defensive abilities, such as the plethora of uses that have been added via the new system in general, magic armor is in fact a primary physical defense, which comes in a huge variety of ways, not purely on a battlefield and I stand by that. Your arguement of pure immersion is disingenuous I feel as we do what we can, but telling across the battlefield I'm coming in hot seems silly to me, feel free to disagree, and you absolutely can hold a line, but dropping things with ptd skills or alchemy or magic or anything else, it isnt like magic armor is the only option to handle a fighter, and I agree that group play is totally s thing, see my previous response, group play doesn't change in my mind with this change
 

Alkalin3

Administrator
Chief Technology Officer
South Michigan Staff
Marshal
Fighters should be really good at blocking physical attacks, and scholars should be really good at blocking magic attacks. With Rogues being an interesting mix. That was the paradigm laid out to me.

Magic Armor at second level with a ptd means a lot of fighter skills can be dismissed by a really low level scholar skill.

While this is still the case it's harder now. Fighters have Mettle much in the same way. Both of these skills are much more situational.

With a lot more fighter skills and a lot more skills that go through weapons, and a lot less magic items. I think you'll see more opening salvos of disarms followed up by other skills. That makes magic armor still useful. Especially for a huge shield fighter who's going to be eating a ton of disarms.

Additionally Spellswords/Adepts and Scholars have a lot of options to cloak effect groups on these swings, and preserve their magic armor for another follow up.
 

PirateFox

Scholar
Sure, backpacking is still totally a thing given that there are more ways to fight then just physical and healing is on of the most integral parts of backpacking, though you may disagree. You can absolutely counteract things, hence why we as a game have defensive abilities, such as the plethora of uses that have been added via the new system in general, magic armor is in fact a primary physical defense, which comes in a huge variety of ways, not purely on a battlefield and I stand by that. Your arguement of pure immersion is disingenuous I feel as we do what we can, but telling across the battlefield I'm coming in hot seems silly to me, feel free to disagree, and you absolutely can hold a line, but dropping things with ptd skills or alchemy or magic or anything else, it isnt like magic armor is the only option to handle a fighter, and I agree that group play is totally s thing, see my previous response, group play doesn't change in my mind with this change
- Simply saying "there are more ways" doesn't actually tell us anything. Please, list them out. That's frankly just dismissive.
- Again, you say Magic Armor's more useful off the battlefield. Since you won't explain that, I'm not going to bother wasting mental cycles on it.
- "Telling across the battlefield"...seriously, who does that? If you're up on me beating me and I can cast a Magic Armor faster than you can smack me, I'd call that good gameplay. Same goes if my backpack can cast it faster than you can get me. If I come running across a battlefield and manage to wreck your day, you're probably doing something wrong and should have used that skill long before I reached you. Also, I run really slow, so that entire scene is comical.
- You simply dismissed most of your own arguments with hand waves. Not helpful. If you didn't want to debate, you probably shouldn't have told people how things do/should work.
 

PirateFox

Scholar
Fighters should be really good at blocking physical attacks, and scholars should be really good at blocking magic attacks. With Rogues being an interesting mix. That was the paradigm laid out to me.

Magic Armor at second level with a ptd means a lot of fighter skills can be dismissed by a really low level scholar skill.

While this is still the case it's harder now. Fighters have Mettle much in the same way. Both of these skills are much more situational.

With a lot more fighter skills and a lot more skills that go through weapons, and a lot less magic items. I think you'll see more opening salvos of disarms followed up by other skills. That makes magic armor still useful. Especially for a huge shield fighter who's going to be eating a ton of disarms.

Additionally Spellswords/Adepts and Scholars have a lot of options to cloak effect groups on these swings, and preserve their magic armor for another follow up.
- Agree to a point. Having some crossover is good for the game, but overall, yup.
- They can...if you can use the spell effectively, which is very hard and borderline impossible in 2.0. Making a skill/spell unusable is no different than removing it. If it's great in concept but can't be used, it may as well go away.
- Very true. I agree completely.
- I disagree on the disarm/magic armor idea in general. Using a times a day skill as a "what if" against the assumption that every opening volley is a disarm feels wasteful. Shield fighter, I completely agree.
- True on the hybrids. I'll agree there, as well.
 

DeSylvia

Newbie
- Simply saying "there are more ways" doesn't actually tell us anything. Please, list them out. That's frankly just dismissive.
- Again, you say Magic Armor's more useful off the battlefield. Since you won't explain that, I'm not going to bother wasting mental cycles on it.
- "Telling across the battlefield"...seriously, who does that? If you're up on me beating me and I can cast a Magic Armor faster than you can smack me, I'd call that good gameplay. Same goes if my backpack can cast it faster than you can get me. If I come running across a battlefield and manage to wreck your day, you're probably doing something wrong and should have used that skill long before I reached you. Also, I run really slow, so that entire scene is comical.
- You simply dismissed most of your own arguments with hand waves. Not helpful. If you didn't want to debate, you probably shouldn't have told people how things do/should work.
What's comical is the animosity you are displaying, I apologize if I didn't go through the rule book to explain to to how combat is influenced by more than just someone with a sword and shield saying 5 magic or whatever, how about alchemy, or magic, in all their forms, waylay as you so politely brought up earlier, combat is dynamic. At absolutely no point in time did I say magic armor is more useful off the battle field, I said to the effect it's always useful, not solely on the battlefield. I haven't told anyone anything, I've given my opinion and nothing more in response to others saying something is wrong, take it as nothing more. And I'm glad to hear your mods/games have so many people that you can have fights that most aren't aware of what's going on across the line, I'll be sure to hold a wake for your "mental cycles"? At the end of the day this was supposed to be a friendly discussion and seems to have taken a major left turn from my perspective is all.
 
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PirateFox

Scholar
What's comical is the animosity you are displaying, I apologize if I didn't go through the rule book to explain to to how combat is influenced by more than just someone with a sword and shield saying 5 magic or whatever, how about alchemy, or magic, in all their forms, waylay as you so politely brought up earlier, combat is dynamic. At absolutely no point in time did I say magic armor is more useful off the battle field, I said to the effect it's always useful, not solely on the battlefield. I haven't told anyone anything, I've given my opinion and nothing more in response to others saying something is wrong, take it as nothing more. And I'm glad to hear your mods/games have so many people that you can have fights that most aren't aware of what's going on across the line, I'll be sure to hold a wake for your "mental cycles"? At the end of the day this was supposed to be a friendly discussion and seems to have taken a major left turn from my perspective is all.
Disagreeing and asking you to explain yourself is not animosity. Trust me, 2.0 discussions can get far more heated than anything in this thread so far! :)
 

DeSylvia

Newbie
Disagreeing and asking you to explain yourself is not animosity. Trust me, 2.0 discussions can get far more heated than anything in this thread so far! :)
I fully acknowledge things can be misconstrued over text and perhaps this is just another case. I fully understand what your saying, and hope my responses have been getting clearer. I admittedly type how I talk, and inflections or assumed understanding of what I'm referring to is sometimes an issue.
 

Mulgrum

Newbie
I'm going to jump in here and agree with the original poster. Removing the prepare to die requirement has removed a valuable counter-play window from fighter skills, which isn't for the fighter, but for the people around the fighter. (Just to intercept the argument the rogue counter-play window is them getting behind you, once you've allowed that to happen you reap what you sow.) Fighters in 2.0 randomly drop spikes of damage or effects with absolutely no warning, which makes magic armor worthless. Yes, its worthless. If you have npc's blowing big skills into fresh targets they are either playing dumb things that should just go burst first, or they don't understand mechanics (which intelligent npc's should as they too live in a world with magic armor being a thing).
As a healer I'm not even bothering with it in 2.0. Removing prepare to die has removed my ability to react to the battle around me and make choices. Now I wait for the fighter to decide which of their cool toys they're going to use and dump healing into them. This is a case of your immersion, which is a "you do you" thing, fighters charging up or letting out a cool battle shout or otherwise taking a second to prep chopping a dude in half is totally in my fighter fantasy, vs my gameplay being reduced even further. You get to feel awesome, I get to chant the same words over and over again into your back. Until you don't feel awesome after you get triple tapped into an evis.
 

Feldor

Scholar
Honestly, removing PTD might lets fighter dish more damage** in a single combat by decreasing the usefulness of magic armor, but it means they have less ability to generate the threat that lets them control the tempo of the fight. I think the removal of PTD is probably a nerf to fighters in general. I understand why some folks campaigned for its removal but I think what they got in its place is weaker than what they started with.


** - I'm actually doubtful of this, because a blocked damage call from slay is now used, and needs to be recovered by meditation; where as a blocked PTD stayed active until used (or another damage call was done). So assuming reasonably OOG skilled opponents, its likely that at least some slays will be blocked. And while they can be recovered, this reduce the damage that can be done in a single combat.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
....Anyone else planning on using Potion Coatings with Cache to emergency backup people?

...Because I am...
 

Feldor

Scholar
....Anyone else planning on using Potion Coatings with Cache to emergency backup people?
I don't think that works. Specifically, from the ARB: "Carrier attacks can never give a beneficial effect to the recipient." And any called number in a weapon swing is considered a carrier attack.
 

mythic

Knight
Owner
Calgary Staff
We just ran our first play test. Fighters and Rogues loved that removal of PTD. They could easily wait until they could land a good shot, and hit the NPC with enough to usually drop it. Some times it would be negated by a skill, but more often than not, they could land it. I was on the receiving end of several 500 Body and several of the Slays/Assassinates that I had to either eat, or negate (or a minion was close enough to me to Intercept). But even when they did not land, most players had Mediate III and could go get it back during the fight (1 minute) and come back in to try to land the hit again.

It really is something that players must playtest. Theory-crafting it does not do it any justice in the least.
 

Inaryn

Knight
Every playtest I've participated in thus far, and I fail to think this will be different since fighter skills are still PTD-less, Magic Armor has been useless.

As a caster, I have no plans on memorizing it with *either* tree. It's far more build efficient to take repels and healing, and just spend the xp on a shield.

Magic Armor in 2.0 is useless.
 

DiscOH

Artisan
I don't think that works. Specifically, from the ARB: "Carrier attacks can never give a beneficial effect to the recipient." And any called number in a weapon swing is considered a carrier attack.
It's not a carrier. It's a spell strike without a damage call.
 
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