[.11] Armor, armor caps, and wear extra armor

Feldor

Scholar
Armor values have been increased significantly.

For example, my Spellsword in a chain hauberk with some plate over it, generally gets 28 points of armor. Under the new rules, it would be 47-54 points (depending on if I wore a helm).

1) Armor caps need to be raised, or wear extra armor needs to provide more armor per point.
a) As a relatively low level player, it seems awkward to need to spend 1/3-1/2 of my XP to get the benefit of my armor. (22 or 29 build for wear extra armor + 3 blacksmith.) For new players, it'd be entirely out of reach.
b) The current armor rules when combined with the current caps would incentivize wearing less immersive costuming. Class armor caps are to low compared to even light armor. A ringmesh sleeveless shirt caps most classes, and a short sleeve hauberk armor caps all classes.

2) As part of playtesting, to take advantage of the rules change, we should consider allowing players to gain the benefit of the amount of armor they actually wear without requiring them to free up 20-30 build for wear-extra-armor. Otherwise, the playtesting is not testing how armor will actually scale over time.
 

Darkcrescent

Knight
Chicago Staff
Marshal
I was looking at this yesterday and with my current lowbie Fighter in these rules I'd have:
Plate Bracers (5--4pt + 1 real)
Thick Leather + Meshmail torso (27pt-- 24+ 3 for real)
Steel leg armor (5pt)
In genre + MC (6pt)
Meshmail Shoulders (4-3pt + 1 real)
47pt suit. Fighter base is 35.

With a hat/helm it could easily reach 53. That would require 17xp just to be a beefier tank, just seems like a lot of xp.


What if Wear Extra Armor wasn't a 1 for 1, but something like 3xp for 5 armor. This would allow at least some savings and still have a cost associated with it. Under this is would be around 9xp for 15 extra armor, which is quite encouraging.
 

Azeban

Newbie
On a related armor note, I'd be curious if any consideration been given to adding armor to the list of gear that Blacksmith can strengthen in order to allow the armor to be reduced to 0 instead of destroyed against two shatters. Given the increased focus on physical armor, production costs of higher-value armor tags, and the fact that armor reps are a less-easily-changeable piece of costuming than a shield or weapon, it may be worth having some method of armor resisting shatters other than rendering indestructible. Especially for lower-level characters.

(Just to put a nugget in the ears of playtesters. My own ability to playtest and offer official feedback may be limited.)
 

Ardos

Artisan
South Michigan Staff
It seems like that could also be another thing to consume as part of a ritual ie. Stalwart shield using a charge. Any reason to give more useable production to high level blacksmith is a positive to me.
 

Alkalin3

Administrator
Chief Technology Officer
South Michigan Staff
Marshal
On a related armor note, I'd be curious if any consideration been given to adding armor to the list of gear that Blacksmith can strengthen in order to allow the armor to be reduced to 0 instead of destroyed against two shatters. Given the increased focus on physical armor, production costs of higher-value armor tags, and the fact that armor reps are a less-easily-changeable piece of costuming than a shield or weapon, it may be worth having some method of armor resisting shatters other than rendering indestructible. Especially for lower-level characters.

(Just to put a nugget in the ears of playtesters. My own ability to playtest and offer official feedback may be limited.)
If your thinking that you need to take off your armor rep because the item got destroyed, I think that's a bit extreme. You can wear whatever you want for costuming and I don't think anyone expect it especially in the middle of combat where this is likely to happen. Plenty of characters now wear armor reps now and don't wear armor tags for them. I don't see why this would change in 2.0.
 

Azeban

Newbie
If your thinking that you need to take off your armor rep because the item got destroyed, I think that's a bit extreme. You can wear whatever you want for costuming and I don't think anyone expect it especially in the middle of combat where this is likely to happen. Plenty of characters now wear armor reps now and don't wear armor tags for them. I don't see why this would change in 2.0.
No, I'm thinking it's a larger investment for a rep in OOG time and finances as well as in-game production cost than a weapon or shield. It's also easier to equip a secondary/back-up weapon or shield and less impactful on combat performance in cases of shattering than it is for a suit of heavy armor. Thirdly, if a player is taking the hit to their actual physical combat performance in exchange for overall health durability by their character wearing a more cumbersome rep of heavy armor (especially in summer heat), there should be more reasonable means of protecting that investment.

Heavy armor wearers by nature are usually players that focus on the physical aspect of the game. Telling them, "it's okay, you can't really protect your rep but you can keep wearing it," when they are trading off combat performance for that rep doesn't seem like the best solution. Allowing armor strengthening by Blacksmith would be, imo, a reasonable and production-balanced game mechanic.
 

MaxIrons

Squire
Oregon Staff
Marshal
I don't see any downside for allowing smiths to Strengthen physical armor.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
I don't see any downside for allowing smiths to Strengthen physical armor.
Is this the part we talk about how weird the non-piecemail armor system is? Like, my Strengthened armor is suddenly vulnerable to Shatter because I took off my helm?

:|
 

MaxIrons

Squire
Oregon Staff
Marshal
Is this the part we talk about how weird the non-piecemail armor system is? Like, my Strengthened armor is suddenly vulnerable to Shatter because I took off my helm?

:|
No, I suggest we suck that up and drive on. Getting too granular on the field (briefly taking off a helm making things able to be shattered) isn't good for the game.
 

Tulbor

Artisan
I honestly did not remember that Armor was not on the list of items that can be strengthened. It made absolutely no sense that it wouldn't be, and I had to go find the page that says it's not. So ... that's dumb.
 
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Muir

Fighter
I'm still of the opinion that tying armor rating to physrep is bad and regressive game design.

We very intentionally don't base combat damage or other class skills on the quality of OOG physreps or OOG ability, in order to allow people to play characters that aren't themselves in funny clothes. Why then do we demand a level of physical fitness and financial investment to wear armor that has a solely in-game benefit? It could be just as easy as paying for a tag and having the character ability to use it, same as it is for monsters given that most plot teams don't have a rolling armory of plate to bring to every event.
 

Feldor

Scholar
So there are a couple counter arguments to that. We absolutely base combat damage on quality of weapon physreps. We don't make everyone use uniform weapons - if you don't think that buying an expensive lightweight boffer won't improve your combat damage output, then I'm assuming you just don't do boffer combat. And there are teams that have spent significant money and engineering time optimizing shield design and construction to notably improve its effectiveness for Alliance-style combat. Another is that physical armor really does change how you fight and interact with the game. When I'm in my 30+ point suit of plate&chain, doing the mod-jump across a 'chasm' is not really an option. But my game is better mechanically because I get a bunch of armor; and I enjoy how my character looks in armor; and at the same time I'm providing a genre-appropriate amount of 'window dressing' to everyone else's game. Also, good heavy armor doesn't require huge financial investment if you are willing to spend time - though I'll admit its easier to spend money. The new rules are specific modified to make it so that someone who is not as physically fit can benefit from modern lightweight armor techniques and still get significant benefits from armor.

Honestly, I'd like to see more done to encourage wearing armor. I think it adds a lot to the genre and the game atmosphere. Maybe 'wear extra armor' should only apply to physical armor; or maybe you get double benefit from it when applied to a suit of real armor.

With that said, I think requiring a different armor tag for when you take your helm or gauntlets off is silly. Draven has a very good point.
 

Muir

Fighter
A $150 latex rep and a PVC & insulation foam boffer have identical in-game stats. One is easier to fight with, sure (although we would probably disagree on which is easier), but it's the reverse of armor. Generally the more you spend on the armor rep to get it better-rated, the better in-game stats it has and the worse it impedes your fighting on an OOG level due to weight and bulk.

I like seeing armor for in-game atmosphere reasons, but I really, really hate it as a monetary barrier to entry for new players and a way to make character death vastly more punishing on the wallet and thus to be avoided at all costs.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
You can make a $30 ultralight from materials picked up at Goodwill (a few bucks for a golf club) and Home Depot that will outperform any latex weapon on the market. Want to make it a better length? Shell out a bit more for kitespar.

The idea that damage increases with cost is simply wrong, because maaaaan are good ultralights cheap to make.
 

MaxIrons

Squire
Oregon Staff
Marshal
Also. Don't forget that in 2.0.11 you can mske ultralight foam "plate" armor to get a 40 point suit relatively easily. Representational armor does exist in this version.

P. 11: When a suit of armor is evaluated, the evaluation takes into account what the base material (whatever it is) looks to be ... a well-made latex breastplate may now be counted as plate mail.
 

Muir

Fighter
Presuming, of course, that your local armor marshal thinks your foam plate is good enough looking to score 'looks like'.

Again, judgement calls on OOG props should not be a limiting factor on in-game character card abilities, and in fact are not anywhere else in the rules. A pretty wand rep, scroll, or weapon is tagged identically to an ugly one.
 

Darkcrescent

Knight
Chicago Staff
Marshal
Maybe if it doesn’t “look like” but pretty close it just goes down a pt. So instead of 4 per location it’s 3. Honestly, that’s still a better pt value than the current system.

If the marshal says the armor doesn’t “look like” then the person should ask for feedback on what or how to make it better. Maybe get a second marshals opinion. I feel like with normal costuming there should be costume standards(like we already have).

Personally, and of my own opinion, I don’t want to see all PCs with just tabards, shorts and 60pts of armor for just that.
 

Muir

Fighter
Why not, it's what many folks look like now. Given that it seems Arcane Armor is remaining in game (and substantially unchanged in this playtest beyond Celestial Armor getting -stronger-) while most of the other currently desirable ritual magics aren't I expect it will proliferate even further as a must have item, so you'll be able to identify the well-off by their lack of armor costuming.
 

Feldor

Scholar
You can make a $30 ultralight from materials picked up at Goodwill (a few bucks for a golf club) and Home Depot that will outperform any latex weapon on the market. Want to make it a better length? Shell out a bit more for kitespar.

The idea that damage increases with cost is simply wrong, because maaaaan are good ultralights cheap to make.
Its also cheap to make chain or plate, if you get the materials and spend the time. The SCA has lots of instructions on how to make plate & plate equivalents for new heavy list fighters, on the cheap.

But getting a prebuilt ultralight is often similar cost to a latex weapon.
 

Feldor

Scholar
Why not, it's what many folks look like now. Given that it seems Arcane Armor is remaining in game (and substantially unchanged in this playtest beyond Celestial Armor getting -stronger-) while most of the other currently desirable ritual magics aren't I expect it will proliferate even further as a must have item, so you'll be able to identify the well-off by their lack of armor costuming.
My hope is that since arcane armor is unchanged, but the amount of armor you can get from physical armor is increased, that we'll start seeing more armor being worn. Arcane armor only goes up to 30 points, but physical armor now goes up to 62 points. Admittedly, that is dependent on people being willing to spend build on wear extra armor and wear the armor.
 
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