[.11] Armor, armor caps, and wear extra armor

MaxIrons

Squire
Oregon Staff
Marshal
Wasn't waylay protection going away from Arcane Armor?
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
Wasn't waylay protection going away from Arcane Armor?
Irrelevant, as Waylay is going away in .11, but yeah, that was a thing in previous packets.
 

Muir

Fighter
My hope is that since arcane armor is unchanged, but the amount of armor you can get from physical armor is increased, that we'll start seeing more armor being worn. Arcane armor only goes up to 30 points, but physical armor now goes up to 62 points. Admittedly, that is dependent on people being willing to spend build on wear extra armor and wear the armor.
An extra amount of armor you have to spend build on in no way offsets the combat benefits of not having the weight and bulk of an armor rep.

Not to mention that armor requires tags, which are not remotely cheap in terms of in-game funds, and unlike Arcane Armor, can't be refit after a Shatter but must be replaced.
 

Ardos

Artisan
South Michigan Staff
Why is this even an argument? Wearing armor right now is strictly a detriment to your combat ability. The point of those changes are to give some benefit to those of us dumb enough to ignore the much more effective arcane armor. If you're trying to argue that arcane armor is difficult to get, the cost of a full suit of armor and finding a blacksmith brings that gap fairly close as the ritual to make arcane armor requires no catalyst. It isn't about taking something away from people who don't wear armor but rather trying to make that playing field more balanced. It isn't even free power, to wear that big suit of armor you need to invest in a fair amount of a skill that offers no other benefits. I'm just really unclear about what part of the new armor rules are upsetting you beyond ANY armor rules in the game?
 

Azeban

Newbie
Maybe if it doesn’t “look like” but pretty close it just goes down a pt. So instead of 4 per location it’s 3. Honestly, that’s still a better pt value than the current system.

If the marshal says the armor doesn’t “look like” then the person should ask for feedback on what or how to make it better. Maybe get a second marshals opinion. I feel like with normal costuming there should be costume standards(like we already have).

Personally, and of my own opinion, I don’t want to see all PCs with just tabards, shorts and 60pts of armor for just that.
+1. And at the same time in my totally unbiased opinion, I do want to see those big armor points go to PCs wearing, totally just as a hypothetical, a suit of kikko armor that took $150 of materials and 60+ labor hours over a winter spent repurposing a leather jacket into a fitted jerkin backing, cutting, shaping, hole-punching, and painting 500+ hex plates plus spaulders and gorget from a 55gal plastic drum, ringing them all together with mail, stitching all that to the backing, and tailoring it to fit a specific body and kit. And also see said PCs having a reasonable way to protect that investment instead of spending half a weekend event with destroyed, useless armor because they aren't wealthy/powerful enough to have rendered the armor indestructible yet, or have a master blacksmith on hand who can whip them up a 140 production item in short order. Hypothetically. :p
 

Ardos

Artisan
South Michigan Staff
Absolutely! There was a discussion elsewhere on adding armor to the strengthen list for blacksmiths, making it only 30 production to re-strengthen as opposed to "my large pretty armor rep broke can you make a new suit the coincidentally looks exactly the same for in game reasons" if for example someone spent a similar about of time lacing metal lamellar plates :D
 

Muir

Fighter
+1. And at the same time in my totally unbiased opinion, I do want to see those big armor points go to PCs wearing, totally just as a hypothetical, a suit of kikko armor that took $150 of materials and 60+ labor hours over a winter spent repurposing a leather jacket into a fitted jerkin backing, cutting, shaping, hole-punching, and painting 500+ hex plates plus spaulders and gorget from a 55gal plastic drum, ringing them all together with mail, stitching all that to the backing, and tailoring it to fit a specific body and kit. And also see said PCs having a reasonable way to protect that investment instead of spending half a weekend event with destroyed, useless armor because they aren't wealthy/powerful enough to have rendered the armor indestructible yet, or have a master blacksmith on hand who can whip them up a 140 production item in short order. Hypothetically. :p
Yeah, that's part of why I don't see it being all that common, even with the physrep being notionally cheaper. 140 production means you have to find a blacksmith who's got 28 levels of Blacksmith. That's 84 XP, and at 'cost' 1.4 gold per suit... for something the player paid XP to be able to wear at all, and that is destroyed permanently by a single Shatter.

That's not a worthwhile investment, especially once Plot starts swinging more Shatters because it now actually does something against the players wearing Arcane. Even if that 'something' is just making them refit, because Arcane remains better in every way than physical armor, save for the extreme edge case of Fighters willing to spend 15-25 build on Wear Extra Armor to get up to 50 or 60.

Meanwhile Celestialists can High Magic Celestial Armor up to 40, and have Arcane better than it is actually possible to cast using the magic item creation system on XP alone, no physrep or ingame monetary cost required.
 
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Nikorisu

Artisan
I mean, it seems the detriment to physical armor is the low armor caps leading to spending build on wear extra armor. If physical armor had a separate cap than arcane, I think that would help the situation a lot. It would still mean that players would have to buy the armor in game, but it would make it a more in game resource based issue rather than an experience issue. I think the visual armor that’s coming in the new set (armor that looks like...) will help with out of game resources as well.
 

Muir

Fighter
To clarify my standing:

I believe that we should flatly simplify the armor system to be much like the weapon system. You must wear an armor rep of some minimal definition. You buy an in-game tag, which has no reason not to be one size fits all binary 'armor/no armor' or something minimally differentiated like 'unarmored/light/heavy' instead of point based, and the value that wearing that tagged item gives should be entirely based on the base armor rating of the class plus any levels of Wear Extra Armor. The more fighty the class, the more effectively they use the same armor rep.

The same people who wear impressive armor reps now would still do so, and people who prefer to wear snazzy costumes would be able to do so without shrugging and working out a way to goblin or cast Arcane Armor. Added bonus, no questions of 'did taking off my gloves lower my rep below my tagged value' ever again, and the ability to toss a newbie a few bits of loaner armor and have them use a reasonably sized tag.
 
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MaxIrons

Squire
Oregon Staff
Marshal
I fear it would be difficult to pass by the owners, but a write up for that could be as follows:

Armor:
Armor suits have been simplified and are classified as light/medium/heavy suits. They provide 15/30/45 points of protection accordingly. Light suits represent leather or padded cloth armor, made of flexible materials. Medium suits represent chainmail or a brigandine, made of non-flexible msterials constructed in a flexible way. Heavy armor is typically plate mail, or non-flexible materials non-flexible forms. All suits of armor must at a minimum protect the majority of the torso.

Suits may be increased by 10 points if the suit is "mastercrafted", which is to say that it is made out of non representstional materials. This means thick leather for light suits, heavy rings or thick metal segments for medium armor, or thick metal plate armor.

In addition, a character whose costuming is completely in genre gets an additional 5 points of armor to any physical suit (or no suit) of armor worn. In genre means no anachronisms outside medical requirements (like glasses) or a set of sturdy boots (because we don't want twisted ankles).

The costs for armor in production points is as follows:

Light: 30
Medium: 60
Heavy: 90
Mastercrafting: 20 pp + 15/30/45 copper (depending on suit type).
Strengthening may be applied to a suit of armor.

Arcane armor may create a light or medium suit of armor. This is never a mastercrafted suit.

Celestial Armor may be taken up to three times. The first level provides a light suit, 2nd purchase gives a medium suit, 3rd purchase gives a heavy suit. This may never be mastercrafted.
 

MondayMcGee

Scholar
San Francisco Staff
I’ve never understood why armor isn’t tagged according to the formula we already use to evaluate it. Your heavy plate bracers are worth 3 points to your suit? Tag ‘em separately, and if you don’t have them on you don’t get the points. It makes for more paperwork with the tags, but it’s way more intuitive.
 

Feldor

Scholar
I guess if we make people track individual scroll tags, individual gas globe tags, and individual weapon tags that extending that to individual armor piece tags isn't unreasonable. It might be useful to be able to have a 'unified' tag option for a piece of armor -- for example the chain haulberk the covers 5 locations has a way to indicate that on a single tag.

This could then imply that a 'shatter' only affects a single piece of armor not all armor worn. Which to be honest, might be a good advantage of 'real armor' over 'arcane armor'. Its not all one piece, and therefor can't be targeted by a single shatter.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
I’ve never understood why armor isn’t tagged according to the formula we already use to evaluate it. Your heavy plate bracers are worth 3 points to your suit? Tag ‘em separately, and if you don’t have them on you don’t get the points. It makes for more paperwork with the tags, but it’s way more intuitive.
Bonus points, that's why.

Also, probably because it would make Shatter/Destroy weird. Do they destroy a single tag, or all of them? If only one tag, probably underpowered. If all of them, it's the only multi-tag destroying exception.
 

Inaryn

Knight
So, also from the crafting discussion, proposed, again, by me...

Strengthening
School:
Blacksmithing
Type: Standard
Production Cost: 25
Materials Cost: 50 copper
Expiration:
Rules Text:
As current, plus change to number of charges.
"An item may be given strengthen charges up to a number of times equal to once per ten production points of the value of the item. An item may never exceed it's allotted charges, but it may be restrengthened up to its maximum."

This is not a new crafting item proposal, but rather a proposal to drop the production cost of strengthening an item by half and the monetary cost by 90%. Given the likelihood of the increased presence of shatter effects, the cost of this ability should be adjusted for accessibility.
 

Manflesh

Artisan
Yeah, that's part of why I don't see it being all that common, even with the physrep being notionally cheaper. 140 production means you have to find a blacksmith who's got 28 levels of Blacksmith. That's 84 XP, and at 'cost' 1.4 gold per suit... for something the player paid XP to be able to wear at all, and that is destroyed permanently by a single Shatter.

That's not a worthwhile investment, especially once Plot starts swinging more Shatters because it now actually does something against the players wearing Arcane. Even if that 'something' is just making them refit, because Arcane remains better in every way than physical armor, save for the extreme edge case of Fighters willing to spend 15-25 build on Wear Extra Armor to get up to 50 or 60.

Meanwhile Celestialists can High Magic Celestial Armor up to 40, and have Arcane better than it is actually possible to cast using the magic item creation system on XP alone, no physrep or ingame monetary cost required.
Not that this refutes your other valid points, but having appearance-based armor is very advantageous for non-fighters. My AA will expire next year and assuming the rollout goes through, I am strongly considering buying a faux chainmail shirt, since the shirt by itself hits my rogue max armor AND can be enhanced with rituals I can't put on my AA. Plus since it's a simple shirt, it provides me the exact same freedom of movement that an AA would.

Now, I would suggest that the skill "fast refit" should only be allowed for natural and physical armor and to not include celestial and arcane as it does now, to further give physical armor an edge somewhere else over AA.
 

Muir

Fighter
Edit: You know what, I withdraw this objection. That 'chain' looks more like armor than anything I've seen an NPC wear in years. Good enough for what it's for, and better than shorts, a t-shirt, and a single-layer 18" wide broadcloth tabard.

No offense Derek, but I really, really hope that doesn't get 'counts as' chainmail rating. I think a printed long-sleeve t-shirt is pretty egregiously not the intent of that rule.

Mind you, if you get a marshal to bite, let me know. I'll go buy one of these, throw a tabard over it, and enjoy my compression-shirt counts as plate.

 
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Alkalin3

Administrator
Chief Technology Officer
South Michigan Staff
Marshal
I certainly would say that violates the intent of the rules. But, I have seen cloth shirts that look like chainmail. I think they're knitted. I believe that's what Derek is talking about.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
I’d be fine with the chainmail sweatshirt that will kill people in the summer. I’m not fine with that compression shirt that doesn’t at all convince me of plate.
 
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