Armor stuffage questions

B

Balryn

Newbie
I am wondering what the Seattle rules staff decision is on the following-

If a suit of armor appears metal do you get full points for it? I am looking a creating several suits of resin cast armor or plastic suits that are entirely covered in leather for stealth or painting/formed to appear metal.

I would also like to know if titanium qualifies as heavy metal or not, since technically it's an alloy.

I would like to use several plate styles of armor, however don't feel that plate mail is typically safe for NERO combat, so I'm looking into safer and lighter options that I have previously used.

 
Balryn said:
I am wondering what the Seattle rules staff decision is on the following-

If a suit of armor appears metal do you get full points for it? I am looking a creating several suits of resin cast armor or plastic suits that are entirely covered in leather for stealth or painting/formed to appear metal.

I would also like to know if titanium qualifies as heavy metal or not, since technically it's an alloy.

I would like to use several plate styles of armor, however don't feel that plate mail is typically safe for NERO combat, so I'm looking into safer and lighter options that I have previously used.

Click to expand...

I know that I would be seriously annoyed if people with costume, costume plastic breast plates were given the same amount of armor as the actual chain shirt I wear or the rigs many people wear.
 
Mock metal armor is worth one less point per location.

For example: Painted plastic "plate" armor is worth 2 points per location.

Titanium would be worth the same as any other metal of equal gauge.

-Dan
 
Shikar al'Basteua said:
Titanium would be worth the same as any other metal of equal gauge.
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Ah, but therein lies the problem.

In 8th Edition, a 1 gauge (1" thick) aluminum breastplate would be worth more than a 20 gauge (very thin) steel breastplate.

In 9th Edition, it's classified by the "type" of metal only. 1" thick aluminum is worth only 2 points per location, but steel tinfoil is worth 3.

So Barry's question: is Titanium a "heavy metal" (3 per location) or "light metal (2 per location)? Thickness no longer matters in the slightest bit (although there is a clause in the armor section about "the marshal may determine what qualifies as..." that could justify counting thicker "light metal" as better or thinner "heavy metal" as not so good).

-Bryan
 
Ahh, my mistake. Titanium would be classified as a "light" metal.

-Dan
 
Thorn said:
I know that I would be seriously annoyed if people with costume, costume plastic breast plates were given the same amount of armor as the actual chain shirt I wear or the rigs many people wear.
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Well the plastic I'm looking at using is bullet resistant, so it's durable... but the current book uses very bad wording and doesn't think of the things you can build armor from such as alloys, ceramics, wood, stone, bone, and a variety of other things that work far better.

I was going to look at remaking my samurai armor, however the period materials for most suits are leather or very thin steel- which doesn't get points according to the book.

The book is also flawed on it's description of chain and size, as it doesn't take into account the weave, pattern, type of link, whether it is pinched together, forged whole, welded shut, or pinned. It also doesn't take into account the actual size of the linkage assembly, only the guage of wire.

Hell... I had a teflon coated titanium weave chainmail undershirt that would stop a 45, a hatchet, a pike, or any other monstrosity you could throw at it as long as you put a gambison for padding beneath it. Give me a suit of that stuff and I'd go head to head with a real horde of zombies.

NERO fails very badly at armor "looking real" vs "what it does" on the armor point scale. So I was just looking for some clarification from Seattle staff.

I spent two years in high school designing plate armor for a professional forger... But as Bryan pointed out... they snuck in that evil little wording saying "the marshal may determine what qualifies as..." and I didn't know if there was any precedence for it in chapter or not.

~B
 
and as another question- do you know if the wording for armor is changing in the new book? (I haven't seen any mention of it on the HQ board)

~Barry
 
jpariury said:
A professional forger, or a professional smithy? Hmmm....
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Haha... he was a forger. Most of our work was done on a titanium blast forge. We barely smithed anything at all...

Speaking of smith... Where is Mr. Smithers?
 
Shikar al'Basteua said:
Ahh, my mistake. Titanium would be classified as a "light" metal.

-Dan
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Personally, (just me personally) I'd classify Titanium as a Heavy metal. It's about 1.5 times the weight of aluminum and about 10 times the strength. But more importantly it's about 3 times as expensive as steel. (by weight)

This causes me to ask. Is Thorvel getting 3 points per location for his armor. It is rivited alluminum. A very nice suit but according to the strictest interpertation of the rule his armor would only be worth 2 points per location. The same as a plastic breastplate. I think that in here there is a decent bit of flexibility to decide what armor is worth 3 points and what is worth two. There's no way that a sheet of deer hide with a few studs is anything comparable to aluminum chain.

Marc
 
I believe that this was actually brought up on the alliance board several months ago, and titanium was determined to be steel, and therefore worth 3 pts per location. They were specifically refering to a suit of chainmail at the time.

My personal opinion is that if it looks good, it counts. We're not a historical game, we're a fantasy game, and we don't need the padding to work for real. But that's not exactly the rule. Oh well.

~Matt
 
It's unfortunate, but a true fact that our armour system really doesn't scale well. For enjoyment of game and mobility, which factors in hugely for packet-fu, I'd never wear anything heavier than studded leather, with possible exception of a chain vest. I can make up a nice looking suit of studded with NO HELM mind you that with the 2 points for all in period and 4 points for master quality that is 20pts easily. That's only an Ice bolt's worth of damage less than Gurv gets for having reduced mobility, hearing, vision, and comfort. Now, I know Bryan also wears that armour for visual effect and he is hardcore, kudos bro. But, I can also make said suit of studded leather for around $100, whereas it would cost me that much to get a breastplate or chain vest alone online.
Also, we're protecting ourselfs from steel longswords made of graphite and foam. Why should the steel plating that does that protecting have to be real steel? It's expensive and harder to work with unless you happen to already have access to the tools and shop to do it in. Personally, I feel they need to up the numbers on "true steel" armour and push up the max for fighters, or instead make the armour skills buyable at a reasonable build cost. Wear Extra Armour is silly if you just have light, medium, heavy armour skills to be bought and would add some nice flavor like Warmages.
Just chiming in.

Jeff
 
Matt, the discussion you reference was never definitively concluded, and even if it were that would be the Ashbury definition, and not valid locally.

Titanium may be heavier than Aluminum but, again, it's still a light metal. If you want 3 points, wear something heavy. If you don't want to wear heavy armor that's fine, but the lighter stuff is only going to be worth 2 points per location.

-Dan
 
I have always been under the idea that its harshness/weight/awkardness of armor that helped determion its point value. Hence why titanium, a materal that ooc would be vastly better than steel, might be a "light" metal.

Sadly, I didnt look over the pre view of the new book at the armor definitions, so I dont know if the details changed, but its something to look at. I would guess no, but if anyone is going to make complicated and expensive armor, I would say wait untill the new rules make it to us.
 
Shikar al'Basteua said:
Matt, the discussion you reference was never definitively concluded, and even if it were that would be the Ashbury definition, and not valid locally.
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At this point, especially considering recent events on the Alliance board, I seriously doubt that it's a good idea to define things in the book differently between chapters. If it wasn't definitively concluded, that's all fine and good, but if it was defined, or gets defined, recent events show that it's certainly not something that's up to chapter determination.
 
Solomon Maxondaerth said:
I can make up a nice looking suit of studded with NO HELM mind you that with the 2 points for all in period and 4 points for master quality that is 20pts easily. That's only an Ice bolt's worth of damage less than Gurv gets for having reduced mobility, hearing, vision, and comfort. Now, I know Bryan also wears that armour for visual effect and he is hardcore, kudos bro.
Click to expand...

I hear ya, man. And on some level it sucks to be clanking around in full plate (or as close to it as I've ever seen in NERO) knowing that I really get very little more than the guy next to me in chainmail. Which, while nice and all, is just not nearly as good in protection as full plate is. The rules for plate just don't scale as they should.

Obviously, this doesn't matter to me enough to change -- Gurv's armor IS his costume; it's not like I wore a lot less on the no armor nights this last event (except for the couple hours Sunday morning he wanted to take advantage of his Arcane Armor the day before it expired). I mean, armor can be fun to wear. But I agree that it's a little silly to worry about whether a metal is OOG heavy or light when the rules are already as ridiculously out of scale as they are.

-Bryan

PS: I finally got my steel greaves back from the armorer, so next time Gurv comes in he'll be in even MORE steel armor. Woo hoo!
 
Chain and Plate both historically had their benefits... and their weaknesses. Arrows would have a harder time piercing chain, and go through plate a bit easier. Plate offered more protection against bashing damage. This is why, historically, people who were really wearing all this metal were wearing *both* armor types; chain under plate.

Now, NERO's pretty clear on layering armor. You get the better value, not the total.

So, it would be safe to say that NERO's armor rules are more or less just a mechanic and not actually based on historical armor coverage/usage, except in the fact that certain armor types are worth more points than others. (Since certain armor types just protected you better than others, really)

So, yeah. NERO armor rules are a bit silly. But then again, so is getting a bag of bird seed thrown at you and pretending it just made your foot stick to the ground.

NERO's not historically accurate. It tries to be at times, but there's only so much you can do with a fantasy game. *shrugs*
 
Kerjal Obcidian said:
At this point, especially considering recent events on the Alliance board, I seriously doubt that it's a good idea to define things in the book differently between chapters. If it wasn't definitively concluded, that's all fine and good, but if it was defined, or gets defined, recent events show that it's certainly not something that's up to chapter determination.
Click to expand...

From Page 25:
"The marshal's decision as to this distinction is final."

I've ruled on this, and the answer is final.
 
Diera said:
Chain and Plate both historically had their benefits... and their weaknesses. Arrows would have a harder time piercing chain, and go through plate a bit easier. Plate offered more protection against bashing damage.
Click to expand...

Aha! (cue Sherlock Holmes music) These claims have been refuted many times by historians. Arrows had a tough time penetrating EITHER chain or plate, but plate was truly superior anytime after about 1400. Chain was used only by those who couldn't get plate or in addition to plate in spots that needed the flexibility (armpits, aventails, etc.) You really don't see nearly as many full chain hauberks after ~1400, and chain leg defenses vanished almost completely.

This message brought to you on behalf of Arador Armour Library (http://www.arador.com).

That said, I agree that realism really doesn't have much to do with NERO combat.

-Bryan
 
Polare Lissenstine said:
This message brought to you on behalf of Arador Armour Library (www.arador.com).

That said, I agree that realism really doesn't have much to do with NERO combat.

-Bryan
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That's funny Bryan. Yeah... having tested several suits of chain... I wouldn't take any of it against a bow. It punches right through both sides every time.

Real world vs. NERO World sucks everytime. Haha.

~B
 
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