Character Gender-Bending

Jim

Scholar
Mobius said:
I can't think of a single Marshall who would rebuke, let alone Card, a Player for choosing not to act under a Role-Play effect because it made them extremely uncomfortable. If a player said, "I was just hit with Love, the only other person in the room is someone I'm uncomfortable being 'In Love' with, I choose not to play it out" every Marshall I've met would back them up.

Love is almost a stand-alone in that it is a very powerful Role-Play Only effect and has no other In Game Consequences. The closest analogue is Charm, but Charm deals with neither Agape nor Eros and, as such, can be comfortably roleplayed without the deeper connotations associated with Love.
I would be annoyed. It wouldn't bother me in the slightest if I ended up having to rp being in love with someone who oog was not my appropriate gender- especially for 10 minutes. It's one thing to not want to rp that with your ex or someone who you have a very bad oog relationship with, but I'd rather see the effect removed than support narrow-mindedness and homophobia by letting people skip the effect because they are uncomfortable with 10 minutes (or hell, even 5 days) of rp. Love doesn't have to mean sex, especially in a fantasy setting. Courtship is a fine option and shouldn't get anywhere near uncomfortable in 5 days.
 

tolgar undershaft

Artisan
San Francisco Staff
Many different ways to RP Love also. could be a love that is shared between brother and sister. does not mean you want to jump their bones but would still mean you would try and help them in any way you could.

Honestly I think this topic is getting off the point. Is it illegal to play an opposite sex? From what I have read and understand NO! I vote we end this topic and move on
 

Mobius

Squire
This is a game which has Bylaws removing: ****; any kind of sexual discrimination; and, any kind of Religious reference, intolerance, or indication. All in the name of player comfort and propiety. There is absolutely no way to argue that something as delicate and intrusive as love (by Love or otherwise) could be mandated if the Player is unwilling or uncomfortable. This isn't Vampire, it's not designed to probe humanity.

The mechanics of Charm are a bit different since it specifically says you will defend the Charmer and give the Charmer anything they ask for. Technically, as long as you do that, you've followed the Rules. Love has no such specifications, just that you "Love" the person instigating the effect - hence it being an outlier effect with RolePlay only effects.

And, I think this is very germaine to the topic at hand. One of the questions behind the gender-bending exclusion/acceptance is whether it would make people uncomfortable/confused/irritable. The Love effect is a specific circumstance where gender-bending players/characters would make others uncomofortable, hence the necessity of discussion.

That and the Love effect is annoying to me, so any chance to undermine it is "time well spent" ;)
 
Jim said:
Should players be allowed to play characters who are one sex masquerading as another?
I say no. Way too much confusion from an OOG standpoint and with the gender equality of the world, this story doesn't really need to be told here.
I agree with Jim here. The basis for most stories where someone has to pose as a person of the opposite gender is to avoid some sort of gender discrimination. Since that's not something that exists in our game world, the instances where this should ever come up are pretty small. Over all, it'd be easier to avoid the "Bad costume, or a costume of a costume?" issue.
Jim said:
Should transgendered players be allowed to play characters that are the sex/gender of what their gender is without the possibility of being offended by having a list of requirements that equate to them 'passing'?
Absolutely. Anything less is discrimination.
Again, I agree with Jim here. People should be allowed to play characters that match their OOG gender, regardless of whether or not it matches their sex. The problematic part is where we start using the word "allowed." (see below)
Jim said:
Should players be allowed to play characters that are the opposite sex of the player on a whim/lark or to explore story?
Maybe. I can see where players may want to explore this, but it could lead to confusion as well.
Ren Suzume said:
a quick "what do I see?" could remedy that
This is my biggest problem with this. We should be doing absolutely everything in our power to remove the question "what do I see?" from the game. I've played in games where it was rude to ask this question because the costuming was so good. I'd like to play in Alliance games like that. Every time we let someone do something that forces other people to ask "what do I see?" we're going in the wrong direction. I should never, ever, ever, have to ask a PC "what do I see?" and if I do, I'll talk to them OOG about their costuming/prosthetics/makeup/etc if in my chapter, or bring it up to a staffer in whatever chapter I'm in. So No, I'd rather not have anyone fuzzing up the setting any more then has to be done to accommodate everyone (which isn't limited to transgendered folk, this was already addressed with tall guys playing dwarves and short girls playing ogres, and is basically the same thing).

All that said, we do have effects that you can opt out of (mind powers, and to some extent, gypsy curse). You've got quite a bit of freedom with some of the more "RP" effects (hallucinate, love, paranoia, intoxicate) about how you play them, but I wouldn't force someone to play any of them in a manner that would make them uncomfortable. That shouldn't mean that you become immune to the effect or it's consequences, but I've had people request that the target be "the girl behind my ex instead of her," which I always grant. While the specific reason might be different, the end result is the same; the player is uncomfortable, and there's an easy fix that will likely be more fun for everyone involved. (Would you really want to be the transgendered girl that 'awkward gamer guy who doesn't approve of your lifestyle' follows around all event writing bad poetry to anyways? ;) )
I could probably pull out half of that sentence and it'd still be valid, I doubt people of any gender-sex combination want to have an awkward gamer following them around all event reciting bad poetry.
I've seen it, it's not pretty.
 

RiddickDale

Squire
Moderator
Public Relations Committee
Someone said Publicity.....

I'm going to take a moment and throw out as official of an answer as is possible here.

Amelia: It has been allowed before and the world didn't end. Ask the chapters you will play in. If HQ, NH or wherever say that it's cool.... then it's cool.

Everyone else: Here is the scenario... AllianceLARP cannot make a blanket statement allowing or disallowing this scenario. The reasons for this have very little to do with the rules of the game.

The guidelines for the non-existence of ****/religion/sexual discrimination are intended to create a level of comfort amongst our players on an OOG level. If done poorly, this scenario could stand in the way of that goal.

If we were to BAN this behavior, we would be robbing good role players of an opportunity to help weave an immersive story. It would also send an inappropriate message to our players regarding the organization and its stance on these social issues (which we don't want to do).

If we were to APPROVE this behavior, then we would need to accept this universally. That means that any 18 yr old young man who wants to pretend to be a "sexy elf chick" because he thinks it might be funny would need to be allowed. This would not likely result in much of a "deep story."

The end result is this scenario would need to handled on a case by case basis to allow the local staff to determine if what this player is looking to do is in the best interest of all parties involved.

Now, before everyone goes all "OMG that would create LCO characters on me," let me state again: this has already occurred. The character transfered. The world did not end. I'll admit that I called "Him" "Her" a lot and got weird looks. But, frankly it ended up being more amusing than anything else.

Good night everyone!

Stephen
National PR
 

Kovu

Newbie
Stephen, I agree with the “official” ruling 100%. A case by case assessment sounds perfect.

Now that it’s been settled that I’m not a dirty dirty cheater. ;) I really want to give some advice to players who are thinking about making oppositely-gendered characters. (Please note I’m saying oppositely-gendered and not oppositely-sexed.) As someone who identifies as female and played a male character for 6 years, I would NOT recommend doing this unless you are really, really serious about it and prepared for the consequences.

Who am I to give advice? I think I am the most commonly referred to PC in this thread. I play Kovu. Kovu was a male Koala. I have played Kovu in 6 different chapters. From my experience this is what I can tell you about playing the opposite race:

1. Boys didn't flirt with me. (Hoorah! That was my goal.)
2. Every chapter is different about how the players react. I mostly saw confusion.
3. I got RP about "how to be a better man." I got really upset at some people for thinking I wasn't a good enough man. This nonsense would have never happened if I wasn't OOG female. (or maybe I just don't understand boys?) :oops:
4. No one ever asks “What do I see?” with a PC. People assume that if they see a feminine face, the character must be female. Be prepared for this.
5. Find some good friends to back you up. My teammates were always amazing; they would correct others pronoun mistakes so I didn't have to spend all day saying, "I'm a boy."
6. Even if they knew better, people messed up my pronoun forever. (heck: sometimes I messed it up too!)

I think it is very possible to play an oppositely-gendered character. It’s a fascinating “be all you can’t be” moment. I had lots of FANTASTIC roleplay because of it. But honestly, I’m glad it’s over. (My race change ritual backlashed for customer service reasons. I can't phys rep being a boy while playing a MWE. No one would believe it. And I was getting really tired of playing a boy.) It will be nice to walk naturally, use my upper vocal range, wiggle my figures when I talk, and, most importantly, giggle without getting funny looks.

I would love to talk to anyone who is considering an oppositely-gendered character. Please feel free to PM me with questions. Cheers.
-Sam
 

Gilwing

Baron
Alliance Logistics
Inaryn said:
Mobius said:
Love is almost a stand-alone in that it is a very powerful Role-Play Only effect and has no other In Game Consequences. The closest analogue is Charm, but Charm deals with neither Agape nor Eros and, as such, can be comfortably roleplayed without the deeper connotations associated with Love.
Speak for yourself. I have issues with the way Charm is worded and roleplaying it. They stem from my 'unique' way of thinking (my disability.) I do not get a pass for having a disability. Nor should anyone get a pass for Love.
The nearest example I could find is Gypsy Curse...At the time the Curse is cast, a player who would suffer out-of-game embarrassment or difficulty with role-playing the Curse may negotiate out-of-game for a different Curse. However, he or she must eventually accept one. The same applied to the sex change flaw on rit scrolls (when it was there).

The bottom line is this. Sarah, you should not be forced to "love" any one you are uncomfortable "loving" (remember that you don't have to be in there face...or perhaps merely pine away from a distance. This potion is not an aphrodisiac.). The same to apply to every one.

Bottom line, remove love from the game. Its already duping a build bought skill anyway (RE Stone Elf Plant False Emotions / Repair Emotions These false emotions can be limited to specific causes: For instance,...or a false sense of love toward someone.)

Charm is a different can of worms that still hasn't been clarified AFAIK.
 

Gilwing

Baron
Alliance Logistics
Kovu said:
1. Boys didn't flirt with me. (Hoorah! That was my goal.)
-Sam
If this was your only goal it's a shame that guys can't respect the fact that you don't want them flirting with you. Glad you are happy either way :)
 
may be its just me but as a lez i have no problem with love and love 9's wording other sex or not i can pretend to fall madly in love with some one i don't find attractant that is the joy of this game acting... pretend... ever hear of it... and if i was playing some one of the other sex as i am in real life i would be happy having to fall in love with some one of my one real sex... but then a gin that is me and I'm hoping everyone who plays this game knows with thoughs kind of spells its all about pretending acting and have fun with it.... its not like the spells asking you to french kiss them that would go against the physical contact rules....

just star dreamy like at them think about cake and bat your eyes a little... or if your a man start doing overly masculine stuff that is rather dumb that you think might empress them... really now this is a glorified drama class and day one was learning how to pretend.
 

Sunnfire

Squire
Gilwing said:
Kovu said:
1. Boys didn't flirt with me. (Hoorah! That was my goal.)
-Sam
If this was your only goal it's a shame that guys can't respect the fact that you don't want them flirting with you. Glad you are happy either way :)

I totally flirted with her anyway.

It should probably be noted that I have known her forever as well, and that its pretty much par for the course.
 

Gilwing

Baron
Alliance Logistics
Sunnfire said:
Gilwing said:
Kovu said:
1. Boys didn't flirt with me. (Hoorah! That was my goal.)
-Sam
If this was your only goal it's a shame that guys can't respect the fact that you don't want them flirting with you. Glad you are happy either way :)

I totally flirted with her anyway.

It should probably be noted that I have known her forever as well, and that its pretty much par for the course.
Jessy, you are ALWAYS the exception :thumbsup:
 

SkollWolfrun

Squire
Oregon Staff
kittenpunk2 said:
may be its just me but as a *** i have no problem with love and love 9's wording other sex or not i can pretend to fall madly in love with some one i don't find attractant that is the joy of this game acting... pretend... ever hear of it... and if i was playing some one of the other sex as i am in real life i would be happy having to fall in love with some one of my one real sex... but then a gin that is me and I'm hoping everyone who plays this game knows with thoughts kind of spells its all about pretending acting and have fun with it.... its not like the spells asking you to french kiss them that would go against the physical contact rules....

just star dreamy like at them think about cake and bat your eyes a little... or if your a man start doing overly masculine stuff that is rather dumb that you think might empress them... really now this is a glorified drama class and day one was learning how to pretend.

True, but remember that everybody has different levels of comfort in these type of things.
Myself, I am comfortable in who I am & my preferences in women...but I would have no problem going up to someone that I know could handle having me 'hit on them' based upon the Potion/Love thing.

Just taking random names:
I would have no problem 'being in love' with Bryan, Adam, Holly, Amy...if their character is opposite mine.
But 'knowing' how JP, Amanda, James, or Ron feel about it, I would pass and ask to select the 'next' person.

(Was going to just PM this, but I think everyone needs to realize that we need the game to be available to everyone that plays)
 

MKing

Scout
Chasmania said:
Actually, I'd be fine with players playing opposite sexes as long as there be something about a player being allowed to opt out of taking a Love from someone of the same OOG sex.
You can play out the Love in many different ways...it does not have to imply the Lusty Love...it can be Brotherly love...want to protect them from harm....or the shy love...just sit across the tavern and watch them and any time the talk to you stutter...and look away...its a RP thing...I dont see why there is a problem with OOG gender...Im straight, I find it harder to RP a Love with some who is OOG Female than OOG Male..why...Im married so that sits in the back of my head... ;)
 

Ithra

Newbie
well JP is misunderstanding both of us, i didn't say i was against the idea, and after reading Kovu's comment i can see why it would be a fun idea, if your acting serious about it and are able to make it believeable go ahead!
i'd just want to be able to choose the first OOG girl i see and not that dude thats playing a girl to be funny who might take advantege of the effect to make me uncomfortable, its just depends on the situation and the person, there may be some cases where i would be cool with it.

but if i was allowed to treat it as a brotherly/sisterly love then i'd be fine.
 

evi1r0n

Baron
I know I am chiming in a bit late but here it goes:
With JP's Transvestite character I found myself in a bit of a dilemma. IG my character is ridiculously polite, so asking what JP's gender was IG would be out of the question. When I asked what do I see OOG, I was told phys repped appropriately. IG my character would have looked for an adams apple. JP obviously has one but I don't know if his character does. I was confused (until reading this thread) what gender that character was.

But if someone reps a character well I don't have a problem with playing a different gender. It's a game after all.
 
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