Discussion of In-game Cosmology

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Dan Nickname Beshers

Baron
Marshal
Spurred by the thread where basically everyone said "Yeah, Stone/Earth/Order/Chaos/Life/Death/Whatever, it just is what it is."

Currently, magic in the in game world divides between two distinct types: Earth and Celestial, referring to magic from the local physical realm and magic from beyond it, if you know think about the meanings for a second. Each type is supported by 4 elements. The Earth school (local physical) has Life, Death, Order and Chaos. Celestial has Stone (not Earth), Air, Water and Fire. Celestial casters call on their four elements to deal direct damage, while Earth just calls on Earth to heal and Chaos to work Necromancy. Order elementals throw and channel Prison, a celestial only effect.

To be blunt: this isn't tidy. I'm going to add my in depth feelings later, but for now: Do you like the cosmology as is, and if not, how would you fix it?
 
The problem lies with the cosmology being based off some of the Medieval Alchemical and Kabalistic teachings: the humours; the elements; the "balanced" universe; etc. This simplified vision of the world doesn't quite jibe with our modern understanding of biology, chemistry, and physics - hence, the schism. From a purely systemic, Rules-based, game-theory model, it works just fine: since this game isn't based on any real arithmetic or consequential "balance", it's really immaterial what we call all these components; it would be the same if we called them North, South, East, West, and Up, Down, Left, Right; no matter how they're referenced, there are eight opposed categories on two perpendicular (or totally separate) planes.

As for In-Game explanations, that becomes mostly pseudo-scientific techno-babble: with the right definition bending and premises you can use any architecture to explain the world (see Astrology). My character usually changes the names (Earth-> Order/Unity/Growth; Chaos-> Decay/Dissolution/Entropy etc.) and blames Spell-Casters who first popularized this or that version of a spell for the noise in communication.

As for fixing it, ¿are you suggesting an IG cultural shift or a rules-based shift in terminology?
 
I think that the common cosmology exists as it does in all chapters because it's easiest that way. The Planar Gate and Contact Other Plane scrolls (and I'm sure others that I'm not thinking of as well) state that other planes may be valid targets (or listed ones may not be available) at the local plot team's discretion. I've been in plenty of chapters where we (as PCs) have had to deal with Time Elementals, or go to the Elemental Plane of Shadows, or look for something made of Elemental Sand, or whatever.

The only problem with calling your Lightning Elementals 'Air Elementals' instead is that if they'll be swinging for "Air" as their carrier, it's an effect that you have to announce pre-game (even if it's just a flavor that doesn't do anything to most PCs). Significantly altering the Cosmology could screw with the effects that you'd be using to represent their agents roaming your campaign world. If you're willing to do that, or if you do it in a way that doesn't introduce weird effects, then you can have an entirely different cosmology in your chapter than in any other one, and that's perfectly fine. It's just a lot more work, and if you use the 'standard' cosmology, someone has already done most of it for you.

At this point, I wouldn't want someone to attempt a re-writing of the cosmology for Alliance, it would screw with the world in too many chapters (much in the same way that some of the additions to the racial sections of the rulebook did). If individual chapters want something unique, that's available to them, but I wouldn't ever attempt to get it to spread game-wide.
 
A few things, then.

The Earth/Stone issue is one that rankles. Yes, it can be explained away, but if it were better addressed in the first place there would be no call for half-baked in-game explanations. This is also true for the "Chaos elementals? Are they necromantic?" issue that pops up. I mean, by the rules they are. It's unavoidable. Chaos as a damage type is in the Necromancy effect group. Boom, end of discussion. But Chaos as an elemental is opposed by Order, an Earth associated element that nevertheless deals heavily in celestial effects, the members of which typically throwing and swinging Prison. Personally, I would like to see at least terminology changes so that there are no longer issues of "No, not Earth as in Stone, Earth as in Healing" hiccoughs.

Personally, I benefit from a better (or at least more definable) visual cosmology. I'd also like there to be "actual" answers to some of the questions that come up, because there isn't much in the game that I personally find more frustrating than being asked "Well, how does this work?" as an in game question, giving what is in our chapter the official answer, and having Traveling Pat from somewhere else chime in with "I heard different." I believe it pulls people out of game to come face to face with "How it works" being up to the imagination (or lack thereof) of plot writers both present and past. This isn't to say that every character in-game needs to know or care, just that I know that I personally and others whom I've spoken to get pretty frustrated by how free form this is. We may represent a minority, but it's still something I'd like to see at least talked about. It's not like addressing this has any impact on game balance in any way, unless someone finds something more reasonable for the Earth aligned Order elementals to swing than a Celestial spell.

In my opinion, the two greatest offenders are "Earth" (healing) and "Chaos" (necromancy). I would propose, if I were to do so, that they be replaced so that the associated incants became "With my spirit's force I <healing spell>" and "With unnatural force I <necromancy spell>". Healing comes from life, "unnatural" doesn't mean "bad" so that conversation remains ongoing, there is no "Earth/Stone" miscommunication, Order and Chaos are now just parts of the cosmology and neither is inherently evil, meaning that neither also seems inherently good by comparison. It even maintains the same syllables for those who truly care. In addition, I really feel like getting away from calling upon the Earth and instead tapping into your very real, very present in-game spirit makes healing less an act that is kind of close to religious prayer and more about "life gives life", which is far more appealing conceptually to me personally.

Please bear in mind that I'm not pushing for these changes. There are too many people who've been playing for too long and are to used to how things are now to try and push through a change like this for essentially a cosmetic issue is unrealistic. There are better uses of the owners' time. I just have my preferences and hot buttons, like everyone else.

By thy way, I don't know about everyone's monster manual, but all the ones I've seen have cards for Air (and water) Elementals.
 
As a new player back in October, I was never confused by the the Earth/stone/chaos/necro mixups. In fact, I never even believed there was an issue until the post came up a few days ago.

For the Celes elements, I see them as just that, calling on the elements. While Earth I see as calling on the very essence, the life force of the Earth. Stone/Earth at a glance I suppose can cause quite a mix up, but when you see everything in action I think it clears up a lot. That's just my perspective though as someone still in their first year of Alliance.
 
Yeah, I never was confused at all. I didn't even think about it until I saw that post yesterday. Honestly, I don't think it's a problem. I've never heard of any confusion whatsoever in the time I've been playing. As to "it isn't tidy", I think that's great. It's magic; it doesn't need to be tidy. It lends a mysticism and allure to the atmosphere of our game.
 
Personally, I'm in agreement with Dan on the discrepancies in our cosmology. Not so much that it is confusing to anyone, more so that there is a discrepancy, the cosmology is inconsistent with itself, and I've seen it on numerous occasions just forcefully dead-end a few IG conversations. Scholars get talking about how magic works, have a slight hiccup with the Earth/Stone thing, and then hit the wall of the Earth/Order/Chaos opposition. Then the convo ends with an oog shrug off.

Here's kind of where the issue lies I think. We have two elemental circles in our comsology, the Foundation elements and Magistarium. Cool, fine. Each school of magic purportedly draws on the power of one of these circles. Again, all is well and good. Except.... This spiritual force of "Earth" from which we draw our healing spells... that's not represented in either circle. It's not Stone, and it's really not Order either. It's just kind of this extra force outside of it all. And Order being primarily linked to a bunch of Celestial stuff, as Dan pointed out, doesn't help.

Life and Death, which make perfect sense IG, also seem to have little actual impact except when Plot wants to throw elementals around. It would seem to make sense to everyone I've like ever spoken to that Life would fuel our healing spells and Death become the driving force behind Necromancy. I'm not really sure how those got handed over to "Earth" and Chaos.

And while the cosmology as it is, kind of, since it's never really been explicitly laid out across the whole allaince, may have been with us for a while, I see absolutely no problem shaking this up a bit, re-naming things and re-assigning spell domains. We've shaken the world up in far more complex ways without much problem, and I think creating a far more fleshed out cosmology will only help RP.
 
Honestly I don't really see it as a significant problem with the cosmology as it stands. The 'discrepancy' and different ways that you can try to understand the current 'system' as it stands I think makes for possible varied viewpoints which seems fine to me. At this point given that what we do have as been around for so long I feel like it would just create more confusion to 'change' the system than to leave it the way it is. Then you would have lots of people who knew the 'old' cosmology of magic, and then new people who hear both the new way and the old way... It just seems like far more trouble than it would be worth.

Just my 2 cents.
 
If I didn't make my intent clear, I apologize. I'm really not trying to call for any kind of change; it's not much of an issue. It really is just a discussion topic, meant to look at a perfect world, your personal ideal scenario and not a feasible, actionable change.
 
Another way to look at the Order/Earth paradigm is in terms of weaponization. That is, Elementalists don't call down "Air" to attack their foes, they invoke Lightning since it's a more direct way to channel that element's destructive energy. Similarly, Order-masters don't use pure order to restore or heal their frieds, they channel that energy through the matrix of Fortannis' growth and "call upon the Earth". It's a matter of how to best channel the energy of any given elemental plane.

Both Order and Chaos are effectively stymied in their efforts to affect the Prime Plane (or whatever you want to call the conjunction of the planes; the "real world") because they can't manifest in a pure form - the very fact that Chaos is contained in physical form --undead and elementals-- doesn't make a lot of sense since Chaos, almost by definition, should be without form. As such, Order uses some tricks from the Foundation Elements (Prison, etc.) and Chaos uses the latent energy in Fortannis (undead, etc.) in order to effect their goals. Life and Death elementals also use bits and pieces from other realms/planes in order to work their mojo.

If you think about the Foundation Elements as the buildling 'blocks' of the world and the Magisterium Elements as the directing 'principles', some of the logic makes a bit more sense. It's a hierarchy of sorts with the one as guiding and channeling and the other as fundament and anima. This also leaves room for "lesser planes" (Pain, Magma, Fear) as one can always create more 'blocks' and 'principles' for creation.
 
Lightning makes a touch more sense attached to Air as one often sees lightning coming from the sky.
 
To me, it'd make better sense if it was "I draw upon the land..." which would be more a nature-force kinda thing vs. just saying "the earth".

Might be less confusing than "Earth".
 
well I'm pretty sure IG the ground we walk upon is still called 'earth'... ;)
 
It's an interesting point, though. "I call upon Fortanis to cure critical wounds" doesn't sound half bad to me.

I call it ground, too. Or "land".
 
Left and right, dark and light, within and without...

Duality is an enormous concept in human history due to its importance to the psyche. There are lots of options to draw from. I am sure it's no accident that our elemental system consists of a pair of paired pairs of opposites.
 
My big problem is that Death and Chaos Elementals have not (in the chapters I've played) been portrayed as necromantic, but rather as parts of the natural order that might employ such magic. I'd honestly be happy seeing the "Earth/Chaos" debate taken out of the cosmological spectrum and changed to a "Health/Rot" debate. Please note that I only chose those words based on the fact that they are both one syllable. Let us leave the four foundation and magesterium elements to be the building blocks of the world and move the debate into a realm where both necromancy AND healing are both perversions of the natural order. This would preserve the debate as to if necromancy is evil, and move the discussion into if earth magic is also evil. Heck, it could lead to a third faction that believes only Alchemy is within the cycle, leading to slower healing times as PCs get healed 2 points at a time.

:)
 
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