Ducal Tournament Archery

Tournament Archery: Real Bows & Arrows, or Phys Reps?

  • Real Bows & Arrows

    Votes: 14 60.9%

  • Boffer Phys Reps

    Votes: 9 39.1%
  • Total voters
    23
  • Poll closed .
Khorwyn Brey

Khorwyn Brey

Adept
Hey all, your friendly neighborhood Elf-Poser here with something to share which has been bouncing around inside my cavernous skull as of late. I've attended enough HQ tournaments (both Ducal and Heroes) now to experience several versions of the Archery Competition, and I was wondering if we could vocalize opinions in advance about how it should be held this year (unless of course it has already been determined). I've seen arguments from both camps (real versus boffer), but would like to see a friendly debate on them here.

I prefer using real archery just because I personally enjoy it, but can appreciate how there are players who have the archery skill in-game, but have no actual real practice or training with a bow. To my knowledge, and correct me if I am mistaken, but it is the only competition that has adapted to real world usage in the past. We certainly don't go around swinging real steel, or casting true magic. But were we to use boffers instead, I feel that the test of an archer's skill should not be heavily determined by weapon profs, as it was last year. Also, another side topic to discuss is whether or not characters without the archery skill should be allowed to compete. Two years ago I saw this happen, and disagreed with it, despite the handicap of making unskilled characters stand further away from targets. To me, that is the same as entering someone without manifested aura into the Spellcaster's Battle, or someone completely untrained with weapons into the Combat Competition.

Thoughts?

- Dave
 
Have participated in both type and like Dave I prefer the real bows/arrows. They are more of a competition of skill rather than the number of profs one has. Although, I would be more open to a boffer competition where the shooter has to hit various targets setup at various distances and angles from the shooting station (could even have a moving target as one of the targets). Targets that are smaller and/or farther from the shooter would be worth more points. This way it would be boffer arrows and still a skill competition and not a contest of who has the most profs.

I disagree about not letting pcs/npcs participate in archery competitions. Bows are very easy to use in real life and take little skill to use, however it takes pratice to shoot well. I have participated as both a pc and npc without the archery skill (and eventually purchased) and think that the line that those shoot without the skill is not far enough back from the line for those with the skill to accurately simulate the lack of ig archery skill. The gaps between lines should be atleast twice the gap used in the past. Could even see the gap progessively grow each line back (something like 1st shooting station has a 4ft gap, 2nd a 6ft, and the 3rd having an 8ft gap). Either way the competitor with the ig skill will have a more realistic advantage overthose without the skill.

Kevin
 
Honestly I'd say I prefer packet archery. This is the one thing in tournaments that I've seen taken to an OOG level and that seems somewhat strange to me. There is still a lot of OOG skill at packet throwing that goes into using boffer packet archery representation. Caldaria did a very cool tournament last year with lots of different variations on the type of shooting that was done and it was a lot of fun.

I also would agree that its a little silly to include characters in the tournament that don't have the skill Archery in-game. It creates just another strange little dis-junct with the "world" of the characters that might be nice aesthetically but I just don't think makes sense. You can't just "swing your sword" cause you are a good stick jock OOG and participate in the fighters duals, why should you be able to do that for archery?

And even with IG archery you don't have to make profs matter at all. You could make them matter a little bit but I think there could be a balance. But like with the fighters dual build based skills do affect certain competitions in the tournament, and archery is clearly something that is very much covered IG. Lets just keep it IG, at least that's what I'd vote for. :)
 
Kevin, I really appreciate your thoughts on how to make the actual competition more creative and accuracy-based rather than prof-based. And I can understand your argument for letting those without the skill compete by enforcing the necessity of giving them a handicap, but from a tournament-wide perspective, why should it different from the other exceptions I listed?

Someone without the ability to cast simply cannot compete in the Spell Caster's tournament, and while anyone can pick up a sword or axe and swing it without training, the game specifically hinders them for doing so by causing damage through weapon striking. And really, I cannot imagine any team selecting an untrained fighter to enter into any of the Combat competitions. Why send an untrained archer into the Archery Competition either?

Also, I think it would be rather unfair for someone without the in-game skill but excellent real-world skill to win the competition, when others have specifically spent the build to gain the skill in-game, but may not have authentic proficiency with a bow. I know one of my main reasons for spending the build on Archery in the first place was so that I could initially compete in the Ducal Tourney three years ago.

Great discussion and points, guys! Thanks, and keep it coming! :)
 
I have to say I always enjoyed the Archery competition while using real bows. One year you needed the archery skill to compete. I think it should be just that, a real bow with the Archery skill (or any skill that includes Archery). The real bow gives a feel that it is just that...real. The first Caldaria tourney you didn't need the skill Archery to compete and it was packet. It just didn't seem right even if my team won.
 
i do not understand why anyone would run an archery tournament and NOT require the IG skill. packet vs real bow is another matter entirely, but honestly... there should be no debate about requiring the character that enters to have the skill.
 
In the past, those with the archery skill got the advantage of being able to shoot from one line closer in each round than those without. Kind of like how you can spar with a sword without the skill, but you can't do damage or block with it in actual combat.

Scott
 
that's a little more fair. i guess i always just see a tournament as being the best in the land coming to compete, and that someone who clearly does not posess the skill to shoot a bow well enough to damage someone would be allowed to enter (and potentially win) doesn't seem right.

i like dave's spell casting analogy. it seems if we would restrict that tournament to those who put build in the skill, we would do the same with the other events.
 
You guys wouldn't believe how much of my down time I spend thinking about how to tweak various tournament events to make them more enjoyable and preferably quicker to run (slow events are boring events).

Which, if you haven't guessed, means that I love this thread.

Glancing at what people are writing, I still personally believe that boffer is better than actual archery. First, it is simply quicker. Real bow and arrow archery takes at least an hour, which is primarily dead time. Second, ignoring proficiencies completely is just as bad as ignoring OOG skill, in my opinion. Proficiency is supposed to be an in game representation of skill. That build should count for something in a contest of archery skill (as has been pointed out, build spent on spellcasting counts for the spellcaster tournament).

The idea someone mentioned that Caldaria used seems to be a good one to adapt. Sorta like a game of HORSE using archery rules. Set up a shot and then subsequent archers need to make the shot. My best idea on how to apply proficiencies is to allow archers additional misses based on proficiency. So, imagine a game of HORSE where you lose when you miss as many times as you have proficiencies (or maybe proficiencies + a number).

It is an idea. I know it doesn't use a real bow and arrow, but since I have actually seen a tournament where someone without the archery skill schooled everyone with it due entirely to real world archery skill, the real bow and arrow just seems unfair. It made sense back in the day when packet archery didn't exist. But it does now, and I think the tournament should adapt to the changing rule set.

-MS
 
I prefer real bows and arrows. It's more exciting to watch than people throwing packets.

We did switch the rules so that you must have the archery skill, which I think is important. As Scott said, when this began, we used to just give an advantage to having the skill but that was way back when we started the game and very few people even had the skill. I'm glad we don't do that any more.
 
Well said Mike.

We actually used the HORSE idea you are suggesting Mike when it came down to a 3 way tie for the win in Caldaria. Initially the first stage of the competition was just a point system, and then it was elimination after that.

Or you could have a point system to reach a certain "bar" and then those that make it to that bar have to "make the shot" to continue. And you could use a system where extra backstabs/profs gives extra shots, or if you are doing points make their shots earn more points or something. You'll want to add backstabs too now just cause they do augment the damage at least a bit.
 
I like the Idea of realy archery. Sure It might take longer but, to tell you the truth, sitting there watching people throw packets is only entertaining for so long. I would so much rather watch real arrows flying through the air any day. Plus it's more fun for the people that are actualy doing it I think.

As for the whole needing the skill....Yeah you need the skill! If you can't do it IG then how would you be able to do it for the tournament? It really doesn't make sence that some one without the skill can suddenly pick up a bow and shoot. Then suddely afterwards can't do it again. No that's just not a good IG thing to do.


That's my opinion.
 
It might make archery too similar to spellcasters and champion's and stuff but one idea is to have the archers trying to kill each other. We use packet archery obviously and profs count but so do parries, ripostes, dodges, evades, slays, eviscerates, terminates, etc.

I personally think this would be 10 times more exciting than watching people shoot real arrows at a target. And of course, there's nothing stopping us from doing both so the winner of the target practice gets some advantage in the next comp where everyone is trying to kill each other (like 30 points arcane armor and a once ever dodge / terminate or something). This way the target practice counts for something and makes people who like real archery better happy. But we could do only one round (or two) of real archery so we don't sit in the sun for an hour bored.
 
I understand your points Dave but after reading Mike's post the lack of ig skill issue is moot and no need to address it further and get off track of boffer v. real.

It seems whether outside of whether one prefers boffer or real there is the issue of a skill vs. profs/backstabs based competition with boffer. By thier nature archery competitionsare skilled based since short of using a different arrow head or draw weight, or having the skill it is not possible to do more damage with that same bow in different hands. (Obviously a more skilled shooter will have a greater chance of hitting the vital spot they are aming for which increases the injury to the person/aminal they are shooting and that is essentially what the added damage from profs simulate.)

All that aside, like many I prefer to watch and compete with real bows. To adress Mike Strauss' concern of real bows talking too long there are ways to speed up the competition. In the past there were 3 rounds when using a real bow. An easy way to speed up the competition is to have multiple targets and shooters per round. Hay bales are not expensive and there could be 3 sets of bales seperated into 3 shooting stations side by side with 3 targets. WIth a set of 3 shooters shooting a set of arrows at a time the competition would speed up greatly. Additionally since there would 3 different bows each shooter would shoot an end with each bow so there is no advantage of using one bow over another. A nice about hay bales is they could be used as ig props the rest of the year.
 
I think having an Archery mele, or dual like the fighters and spell casters competitions is an awesome idea! :)
 
There are already two events in tournament based on weapons combat, PLUS caster's combat. IMHO we don't need another combat event.
 
Ket said:
All that aside, like many I prefer to watch and compete with real bows. To adress Mike Strauss' concern of real bows talking too long there are ways to speed up the competition. In the past there were 3 rounds when using a real bow. An easy way to speed up the competition is to have multiple targets and shooters per round. Hay bales are not expensive and there could be 3 sets of bales seperated into 3 shooting stations side by side with 3 targets. WIth a set of 3 shooters shooting a set of arrows at a time the competition would speed up greatly. Additionally since there would 3 different bows each shooter would shoot an end with each bow so there is no advantage of using one bow over another. A nice about hay bales is they could be used as ig props the rest of the year.
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I like Ket's idea.
 
True, using my idea would be a 4th combat event. But if you count the race, hunt, entertainment, colors, trivia (which is by far the worst event to watch and I hope gets eliminated) I don't think it messes up the balance at all. I think we can agree that even if we do combat archery we'll spend far more time on the non-combat events. Hunt alone probably takes more time than watching all 3 combat events we have now. I mean it takes a while, thinking about it during the weekend and then the Sunday business.

There's also the option of doing both bow and arrow target archery (just please keep it short) in addition to the combat archery.

And if the concern is that the tourney is too combat heavy, just do two entertainments, one Friday and one Saturday (and get rid of or enforce the rule that all 6 people need to participate since last time that rule was broken a few times anyway - maybe let teams decide which of their 6 go Friday and which go Saturday so everyone does entertainment once but one night could be a solo singer and then the other night the other 5 do a skit or whatever). Or add some new non-combat events.

Ezri said:
There are already two events in tournament based on weapons combat, PLUS caster's combat. IMHO we don't need another combat event.
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I voted for real archery because I actually find it enjoyable to watch, but I realize I'm in the minority. I'm ok with whatever the pcs both participating and spectating would find most enjoyable. On the tangent topic, trivia has been boring in the past but the "list" variation last year really sped it up and made it more interesting to me.
 
Toddo said:
I voted for real archery because I actually find it enjoyable to watch, but I realize I'm in the minority. I'm ok with whatever the pcs both participating and spectating would find most enjoyable. On the tangent topic, trivia has been boring in the past but the "list" variation last year really sped it up and made it more interesting to me.
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Trivia is still a whopping head ache. There aren't that many things in Alliance that fit well into the list format I came up with. In fact, archery and trivia top my list of dull events to watch (based on my personal experience, responses over the years, and observing others watching the events... or usually not watching). That is the main reason I am constantly trying to re-work the two events.

-MS
 
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