Evaluatable Items and tags representing their worth

Shandar

Artisan
phedre said:
Keep in mind that rit scrolls and catalysts don't come from the production point portion of treasure policy. They are based on attendance numbers. They are not intended to have value when they travel, even though the items they create can. The arguement here seems to be that there should be another form of treasure that can travel which would come out of production points... while I think it's a very cool idea in theory, I have to agree that it's a lot more work put onto an already hardworking group of volunteers.
Treasure policy is treasure policy (which, make no mistake, I am well versed in). Whether it comes from the production pool or the ritual allotment is irrelevant; the idea that if something came out of treasure policy it should have value all over the Alliance is unsupported by existing policy. My point in referencing scrolls and catalysts is that there is precedent for items distributed within the framework of the treasure policy to have no value outside of the originating chapter.

Would it be nice? Sure, but what I'm reading in this thread sounds a lot more like entitlement (why can't I transfer this legit treasure?) than creative collaboration.
 
Evaluatable items are a direct substitute for coin, and coin is intended by the rules to be universally accepted at all chapters, therefore the rules DO state and support that evaluatable items trasfer.

I accept that this is more work (albeit only a little, and I do speak from quite a bit of logistical experience) but my original point stands that this easy-to-print and have on-hand list is almost never printed or on hand! This is not a decrease in tags issue, it's not a streamlining the system issue, it's a customer service issue. It's been happening for a very long time, and "Yeah, we really should have some of those printed out by next event" isn't fixing it because it doesn't happen. Now, I know someone is gonna get on and say "We have always had copies in OUR chapter" and that may be true, awesome. It is not true for the majority of the chapters in the Alliance, and since there is no penalty/incentive to make sure that they do have them other than players stopping playing (which, let's face it, this isn't THAT important, merely annoying) it's not likely to change other than chapters stop putting these things out altogether in order to avoid the whole thing (which I think is the case in some of them) and that's lame.
 

Gilwing

Baron
Alliance Logistics
jpariury said:
To be fair, the evaluation "price" is what an object is worth to logistics, not what it is worth to characters (PC and NPC alike). If your heathens don't like my clamshell swan, they don't have to.
No, its worth the price people put it at when they make it. You can take an item that you always thought was cool and make it an IG item with a number on it and give it a value. You value is the amount of coin you submit to logistics. So if I want it to be worth 100 gold, I have to hand in 100g.

The problem is that chapters buy coins at there own leisure and out of there own pocket. If say coin was given to them this wouldn't be a problem.
 

Lurin

Duke
That is the core of the issue here, if you hand 100 gold to Seattle logistics, bring a tag to my game, and want to spend 10 on a workshop, I have to make 90 gold "change" That adds up quick after a few such occasions (even if the numbers are smaller) Part of running a game is agreeing to use our coins as in game wealth, obviously this system is becoming strained as we continue to go, however the solution in my mind is not to pass the issue on with a bunch of tagged small items to replace the value. The advantage of having a small extremely valuable item instead of gold is it's easier to hide/carry etc. the down side is, it's not universally accepted, even though there are locations you know for sure you can get the value back, you also know traveling it may not be as easy to sell, local merchants in other lands may bargin harshly or attempt to offer less then full value in order to make a profit for their willingness to resell, or you may only be able to spend it on a large purchase, such as for land or a house. That's both reasonable and realistic, your character may prefer to be able to hide his five hundred gold nest egg in the hollow of his left boot as a platinum ingot and be able to trade it anywhere easy, but that's just not life.

That being said, I do think many games are getting very close, or are beyond the point, of having a higher denomination, my characters arn't rich by any means (although I do well on my greedy one) but once you get past a hundred gold or so, it does become a bit cumbersome, but I think adding platinum is a better solution then increasing the workload on our volunteers. I know at the pace SoMN is growing we'll likely be ready to participate in the pool of campaigns needing platinum next time it comes around (at least to be ready for things, we've got some players pushing that level of wealth)
 

tieran

Duke
Gettysburg Staff
Marshal
What about a nationally static mathematical formula that is engraved on the item that a person with Merchant is allowed to "evaluate" (i.e solve) to determine the actual value.

So something like x+y-z*a with xyza engraved on the item in place of the Evaluate Item number.

Yes, I realize it allows people to cheat and learn the formula either OOG or on one character and have all their other ones know it, but there are a great many things in this system that are based upon player trust, one more will not cause the complete and utter destruction of the planet.

Though I also like the "Static List of Eval Numbers" idea.
 

Toddo

Knight
HQ Staff
Marshal
My big concern with that is if players find several high value items in Chapter A, then go to Chapter B a week later and turn them in. This places a burden upon the chapter that the items were turned in to, and coin is not an insignifigant expense.
 

tieran

Duke
Gettysburg Staff
Marshal
Right, but theoretically, a player should be able to do that with currently available evaluate item items.
 

jpariury

Duke
Gilwing said:
No, its worth the price people put it at when they make it.
I think we're talking about completely different things here.

Lurin said:
That is the core of the issue here, if you hand 100 gold to Seattle logistics, bring a tag to my game, and want to spend 10 on a workshop, I have to make 90 gold "change".
So write a new tag (if, for some reason, that's how you're doing it)? Writing a tag and stamping it is not a particularly burdensome activity, even if you do it once for every player that cycles through. (And before I get swathed with antsy Logistics folks - yes, I have done logistics as need demanded)

Lurin said:
That's both reasonable and realistic, your character may prefer to be able to hide his five hundred gold nest egg in the hollow of his left boot as a platinum ingot and be able to trade it anywhere easy, but that's just not life.
It's not a function of character preference, it's a function of out-of-game mechanics, limits and expectations. Treasure put out via the treasure policy is done so with the general understanding that it should be more-or-less fully transferable. The system for determining the value of those items should be accessible and available across the Alliance so as to allow players to use their treasure policy items at value during logistics at any chapter, regardless of which chapter issued them.

Shandar said:
Whether it comes from the production pool or the ritual allotment is irrelevant
Quite the opposite, that's the whole point. Scrolls and cats don't come out of the same body of policy that infers transferability. Gems do.

Toddo said:
My big concern with that is if players find several high value items in Chapter A, then go to Chapter B a week later and turn them in. This places a burden upon the chapter that the items were turned in to, and coin is not an insignifigant expense.
If I find hundreds of gold worth of potion tags, you get the same situation.
 

markusdark

Knight
Shandar said:
It's not that hard to create a no-maintenance evaluate list if you set it up to scale from the start (like the Seattle/Oregon/SF list).
And yet, after three years of playing in those chapters, and asking for copies of the list for my characters with appraisal, I never received one. To be fair though, I stopped asking SF after the first two years but I ask every chapter I attend for one if my character has appraisal but never receive one.

Lurin said:
That is the core of the issue here, if you hand 100 gold to Seattle logistics, bring a tag to my game, and want to spend 10 on a workshop, I have to make 90 gold "change" ...
That being said, I do think many games are getting very close, or are beyond the point, of having a higher denomination
Something that people often overlook, because it isn't "standard fantasy currency" is the note. There were often letters of credit that were given out that would be for large sums of money that were backed by some rich or influential body. I was even designing something that could be used in conjunction with a stamp or signature or some other thing. Below is a copy of the initial draft design. So if you're due 90 gold change, the trader's guild, the moneyer's society or even the local celestial guild can draft a note of credit for the amount.

 

Libras

Scholar
I would fully support the use of notes of worth and writs as long as enough chapters had them as transferable between each other.
I think the tag system supports what is needed even though it's been voiced opposite. People go to alchemists/brewers when they find a liquid, people go to scribes when they find gibberish on a small piece of paper, and people should go to a merchant when they have something that looks valuable. Hell, take it out of the production budget since there's been the issue of craftsman devaluation and item stockpile bloat.
 

Polare

Count
Alliance Rules
Moderator
Seattle Staff
markusdark said:
And yet, after three years of playing in those chapters, and asking for copies of the list for my characters with appraisal, I never received one. To be fair though, I stopped asking SF after the first two years but I ask every chapter I attend for one if my character has appraisal but never receive one.
Really? I know we made sure our Logistics guy had a copy available a while ago, and I know we've had some to pass out to players in the last year or so of events for sure. Hmm. I'll doublecheck and make sure there are some on file again.

-Bryan
 

Shandar

Artisan
seconded. I've had an evaluate list forever. Maybe you're just not asking at the right place or time?
 

markusdark

Knight
At check in/logistics? Not sure when else to ask for a copy.

As for the Seattle game, last one I was at the only person who had one was... dammit, can't remember his name - the male gypsy from Andar who was at the National event as well. Had to go to him to find out what things were worth - lucky I was staying in his cabin.
 

Inaryn

Knight
markusdark said:
At check in/logistics? Not sure when else to ask for a copy.
In your pre-reg email is a perfectly wonderful time to ask for an evaluate list, provided you've submitted your pre-reg by the correct deadline. It's a lot easier for a logistics person to print it and throw it in your bag when they're in front of a computer than digging through stacks to find it at an event. At least, I know it's easier for *me* to do it that way.
 

Alavatar

Baron
Polare said:
markusdark said:
And yet, after three years of playing in those chapters, and asking for copies of the list for my characters with appraisal, I never received one. To be fair though, I stopped asking SF after the first two years but I ask every chapter I attend for one if my character has appraisal but never receive one.
Really? I know we made sure our Logistics guy had a copy available a while ago, and I know we've had some to pass out to players in the last year or so of events for sure. Hmm. I'll doublecheck and make sure there are some on file again.

-Bryan
Seattle has had Evaluate Sheets for the past couple years. In fact, I can guarantee that we currently do have copies available upon request from players that have the Merchant skill.

The previous Seattle Logistics administration must have forgotten where they were placed, which would explain why whoever wanted one never received one.
 

Talen

Adept
Honestly, the sheer number of appraise-able items is one of those reasons I'd centralize where you could do appraisal.

Heck, one game I'm at has it all on a database, with a password (changed monthly) given to anyone with the skill. A laptop (in a discreetly OOG area with easy access) lets people duck in, check a item code, and get back out.
 

Sunnfire

Squire
We make eval list available upon request, because I got tired of printing out multiple copies of a 10 page list to then throw out at the end of the event.

If you don't ask for one you don't get one. If you ask for one during logistics when there are 80 other people making similar requests for random ****, then it might get forgotten.

You can't accept eval items from another chapter because you have no way to actually confirm the value in a reasonable time frame. Either you hand them gold and hope its right, or you keep the item and hope to remember to give them the gold later, and then it only works when you get a response from the other chapter, which can take a while. There are many people that are not that patient, I would hate to be dealing with that kind of **** all the time.

Hell I have a giant bag of items turned in by my own players that is not done yet (You will get an e-mail soon).

Printing the value on a magic item tag would work fine, its just another line to print. We put out actual Jewelry, that has nothing but a coin value associated with it. I got so fed up with people coming up to NPC camp and saying my magic item didn't have a tag, that I started just entering them as magic items with the effect 'not magical' on the tag, so they would cut it the hell out.

So printing it on the magic item tag, not a bad plan, but it would not really eliminate the list, as you could just chuck the yellow tag as it has no effect and keep the item. It also does not get rid of the need to verify the item value out of chapter, which is the part the part that is not worth the hassle.

Every magic item we put out that is not a crap rep, or is created by the PC's, has a value greater than 1cp.
 

Inaryn

Knight
Logistics is one of the most thankless jobs to do for a chapter. (I've been lucky with SF.)

Having to wait and communicate with other chapters about values of things is a headache. Telling the player you can't accept it because logistics doesn't have that chapter's ID list on file is an even bigger headache.

Which is why I suggested a national standard evaluate list. Everyone has the same list, then that gem worth 6cp in Seattle is worth 6cp in New Hampshire. There's no waiting, there's no headache. Just "here's your 10 arrows and your 1cp change," and off you go.

Which isn't to say that chapters couldn't put out an LCO list for their own neat stuff in addition to the national list.

My 2cp value gem may or may not be valid in your chapter.
 
The coin coming from a chapter other than the one the item is issued in can be lame, I agree, but not really the topic at hand.

Here's what I see with going to a "Here's a tag for this necklace, it has a value listed on it that can only be determined if you have Merchant skill":
Pros:
1) One thing has to be printed one time, no more involvement by logistics needed until/unless someone cashes it in.
2) Players could then actually RP out Evaluating the item in real time, when someone asks them, and is not then forced to go OOG to their cabin (at best) or to Monster Camp (sucks) to get the sheet and look up the number or (worst) tell them "IG I tell you the value now, but we have to wait till Logistics to look at the list, if they even have one printed and handy".
3) Players have an easy way to remember what that merchant guy told them it was worth six months ago, instead of having to go through the processes listed in #2 all over again, thus once again breaking the mood/flow of the game.

Cons:
1) It would take a small amount of initial effort to implement it.

I have yet to see anything in this thread that really contradicts anything listed here. I am in no way saying "All logistics people suck and can't do their jobs right, so here's something more for them to do" or anything even remotely approaching that, I have done this job too many times down through the years not to know better. I would rather have to re-enact the one man undead wave battle at 5:45pm every saturday at every event I play at than have to do Logistics again for any lengthy amount of time, but I really do think this is something that's been sliding for a very long time and is one way we could improve the quality of the game with not nearly the amount of effort people seem to be thinking it would take to do.
 
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