Evaluatable Items and tags representing their worth

Lurin

Duke
Maxondaerth said:
The coin coming from a chapter other than the one the item is issued in can be lame, I agree, but not really the topic at hand.

Here's what I see with going to a "Here's a tag for this necklace, it has a value listed on it that can only be determined if you have Merchant skill":
Pros:
1) One thing has to be printed one time, no more involvement by logistics needed until/unless someone cashes it in.
2) Players could then actually RP out Evaluating the item in real time, when someone asks them, and is not then forced to go OOG to their cabin (at best) or to Monster Camp (sucks) to get the sheet and look up the number or (worst) tell them "IG I tell you the value now, but we have to wait till Logistics to look at the list, if they even have one printed and handy".
3) Players have an easy way to remember what that merchant guy told them it was worth six months ago, instead of having to go through the processes listed in #2 all over again, thus once again breaking the mood/flow of the game.

Cons:
1) It would take a small amount of initial effort to implement it.

I have yet to see anything in this thread that really contradicts anything listed here. I am in no way saying "All logistics people suck and can't do their jobs right, so here's something more for them to do" or anything even remotely approaching that, I have done this job too many times down through the years not to know better. I would rather have to re-enact the one man undead wave battle at 5:45pm every saturday at every event I play at than have to do Logistics again for any lengthy amount of time, but I really do think this is something that's been sliding for a very long time and is one way we could improve the quality of the game with not nearly the amount of effort people seem to be thinking it would take to do.
Oh come now Mr.Maxon, there have already been posted other Cons, it's clear you like this idea, and there's some pros to it, and on a local level, not traveling between chapters, I agree with all your pros. Like I've said before my biggest issue is if a near-by chapter heavily uses this system, and wants me to trade out the tagged necklace for coin, this could get expensive fast, not to mention I'm painfully militant about some aspects of my campaign world and I'd prefer not to have someone with 'The Fey Queens tastey looking bananarang' tag set to 5 gold because some logistic guy else thought it was funny at silly o'clock, try to trade it in game to one of my merchants and be upset if they have trouble because it's supposed to be worth X.

Now we can do all this changing out at logistics, we could offer to replace their golden banana with local equivalents like gems etc, but now we are back to creating work for logistics. All that said, this might be something worth looking into if there were some standards in place to ensure some consistentcy, even if it's a small list of 10 gems (I really don't want to have to meassure your emerald rep at logistics) with a consistent value, ie Emeralds = 10 gold, Rubies 25, what have you.
 

Dave

Artisan
markusdark said:
At check in/logistics? Not sure when else to ask for a copy.

As for the Seattle game, last one I was at the only person who had one was... dammit, can't remember his name - the male gypsy from Andar who was at the National event as well. Had to go to him to find out what things were worth - lucky I was staying in his cabin.
People may not know where it is. Let them know it's automatically generated in the Ritual database (right under non-magic items). there is an easy option to print as well. It even organizes it to print alphabetically by phys-rep number.
 

Talen

Adept
jpariury said:
I don't believe the Seattle/Oregon list is generated in the MI db, but rather as an excel spreadsheet.
Come to think, it'd be nice to have a unified list, if there was some way to get it online.

Then you'd simply DL the newest version for an event. Update it once a month, and life is good. (Assuming Logistics is on the ball in each chapter).

The hard part would be the sheer amount of initial entries and reconciling any identical Evaluate ID's. After that, it should be relatively easy.
 

Inaryn

Knight
Talen said:
jpariury said:
I don't believe the Seattle/Oregon/SF list is generated in the MI db, but rather as an excel spreadsheet.
Come to think, it'd be nice to have a unified list, if there was some way to get it online.

Then you'd simply DL the newest version for an event. Update it once a month, and life is good. (Assuming Logistics is on the ball in each chapter).

The hard part would be the sheer amount of initial entries and reconciling any identical Evaluate ID's. After that, it should be relatively easy.
Would probably be far easier to convert current lists to LCO and establish a new national list with an ID sequence that was unique to it.

Just to be clear, the way the WC chapters do it is they have a list, and they make items with a number from the list, rather than make items and add numbers to the list. It's possible to have two completely different items with the same evaluation number that way, but since the item is the rep, all the evaluation number does is give you the cp the item is worth. It's fairly streamlined.
 

jwconvery

Spellsword
Inaryn said:
Just to be clear, the way the WC chapters do it is they have a list, and they make items with a number from the list, rather than make items and add numbers to the list. It's possible to have two completely different items with the same evaluation number that way, but since the item is the rep, all the evaluation number does is give you the cp the item is worth. It's fairly streamlined.
This is a really cool idea, if I understand it. So rather then having completely unigue ID's like Magic Items. You just put an Evalutate ID of DA35 (or whatever) and the list says that all things with DA35 are worth 5 gold. So the List is just a price conversion code sheet. Sure players could start to memorize things, but people can cheat in any system. That is a very simple way to handle it.

Nifty.

-Joe
 

Alavatar

Baron
jwconvery said:
Inaryn said:
Just to be clear, the way the WC chapters do it is they have a list, and they make items with a number from the list, rather than make items and add numbers to the list. It's possible to have two completely different items with the same evaluation number that way, but since the item is the rep, all the evaluation number does is give you the cp the item is worth. It's fairly streamlined.
This is a really cool idea, if I understand it. So rather then having completely unigue ID's like Magic Items. You just put an Evalutate ID of DA35 (or whatever) and the list says that all things with DA35 are worth 5 gold. So the List is just a price conversion code sheet. Sure players could start to memorize things, but people can cheat in any system. That is a very simple way to handle it.

Nifty.

-Joe
Exactly. :)
 

Polare

Count
Alliance Rules
Moderator
Seattle Staff
The idea is that the list is never updated. A player's list from 2 years ago is the same as the list we give out to players today. Keeps things consistent and clean. Plot picks a number, puts it on an item, and hey presto that item is now worth whatever that number charts to on the list.

With the quantity of pregenerated numbers to choose from, I don't know that memorizing is anything to worry about.

-Bryan
 

jpariury

Duke
It's six pages long and uses a 3-character string: letter-number-number, A-X (No I, L, O, Q, U, W), 00-99, so about 1800 possible results, ranging from 0cp to 150gp, give or take, plus a number of nefarious "see plot" or "priceless" results. As far as uniformity and clarity go, it works. I just dislike having to carry around another critical out-of-game piece of paper that in theory cannot be lost or stolen and represents in-game knowledge that cannot be communicated legally. (i.e., you shouldn't go around telling people "all objects with W99 are worth 85 copper") My preference would be that it requires entirely in-game action and formulation. (And personally, if that means allowing anyone and everyone to figure it out regardless of having spent build, so be it. Just require Merchant for using it at Logistics.)
 

Alavatar

Baron
I am slightly confused ...

I am seeing several people referencing Logistics with regards to Evaluatable items. What is meant by that?

I can see using these items to pay for production or workshops since they should be treated at logistics as currency, but I hope people aren't using the skill Merchant to "sell back" these items. Merchant only allows you to get the production value of an item back and evaluatable items have no production value, just a cp value.
 

Inaryn

Knight
Alavatar said:
I am slightly confused ...

I am seeing several people referencing Logistics with regards to Evaluatable items. What is meant by that?

I can see using these items to pay for production or workshops since they should be treated at logistics as currency, but I hope people aren't using the skill Merchant to "sell back" these items. Merchant only allows you to get the production value of an item back and evaluatable items have no production value, just a cp value.
They mean paying for your 5pp of arrows with a 6cp gem. Logistics doesn't know that it's worth 6cp unless they have the same eval list.
 

Dave

Artisan
Alavatar said:
I am slightly confused ...

I am seeing several people referencing Logistics with regards to Evaluatable items. What is meant by that?

I can see using these items to pay for production or workshops since they should be treated at logistics as currency, but I hope people aren't using the skill Merchant to "sell back" these items. Merchant only allows you to get the production value of an item back and evaluatable items have no production value, just a cp value.
If the book does not mention that Merchants can trade in non-magical items for their IG worth then that is probably a slip in the wording of the rulebook.
 

jpariury

Duke
Alavatar said:
I hope people aren't using the skill Merchant to "sell back" these items. Merchant only allows you to get the production value of an item back and evaluatable items have no production value, just a cp value.
There would be no substantial difference to using a 6cp gem to pay for 5cp of production value+1cp of change then selling that production item to logistics vs. just getting 6cp for the gem.
 
Dave, I went back through and the only other "con" I really saw that was directed towards this specific idea and not just the problem in general other than "The list already works when it's there, why rock the boat?" was your point about sapping chapters for coin. While I admit this is a valid potential concern, it's already a concern with the system as-is, and how is that different than if I show up at your logistics with 100 Cause Mort potions from Ohio and Merchant on my card asking for coin, or show up with 300g worth of alchemy, sell it to your local players, then come back to Ohio with all your coin? I mean, if the 100g swan shows up and someone wants a workshop, give them a workshop and a tag for a swan worth 90g. Problem solved.
 

Alavatar

Baron
Dave said:
Alavatar said:
I am slightly confused ...

I am seeing several people referencing Logistics with regards to Evaluatable items. What is meant by that?

I can see using these items to pay for production or workshops since they should be treated at logistics as currency, but I hope people aren't using the skill Merchant to "sell back" these items. Merchant only allows you to get the production value of an item back and evaluatable items have no production value, just a cp value.
If the book does not mention that Merchants can trade in non-magical items for their IG worth then that is probably a slip in the wording of the rulebook.
Can you get the 15sp fee for silvering a weapon by selling back a silvered weapon? Just because an item has a value does not mean it can be sold back straight up for its value...

Specifically:
ARB Page 62 said:
This skill also allows the character to sell
game items (potions, scrolls, alchemical substances,
armor, weapons, and traps) to Logistics
during normal Logistics periods for their
Production Point value in game money. Items
that are not produced through the Production
Point system (components, ritual scrolls, magic
items, etc.) cannot be traded in, and must be
sold in-game.
Only potions, scrolls, alchemical substances, armor, weapons, and traps may be traded in for cash. Evaluated items fall under the "etc." with regards to "Items that are not produced through the Production Point system" (despite the fact that (a) Treasure Policy uses the term Production Points when describing the total amount of treasure to be distributed over the event and (b) Treasure Policy allows the creation of magic items with Treasure Policy Production Points).

jpariury said:
Alavatar said:
I hope people aren't using the skill Merchant to "sell back" these items. Merchant only allows you to get the production value of an item back and evaluatable items have no production value, just a cp value.
There would be no substantial difference to using a 6cp gem to pay for 5cp of production value+1cp of change then selling that production item to logistics vs. just getting 6cp for the gem.
While true, the former also requires another skill that has BP invested. And, I would argue that using an evaluatable item(s) to pay for production should receive evaluatable items for change; akin to the scene in "A Knight's Tale" where the golden horse trophy was cut to pay for Chaucer's debt.

Per the wording in the rulebook and the ARC ruling found here and here.

Personally, I think it makes sense that if you can sell back potions, elixirs, etc. at logistics with the Merchant skill that you should also be able to sell back gems and jewelry. But, the wording for the skill is very clear as noted by Bryan in the ARC rulings.
 

Lurin

Duke
Maxondaerth said:
Dave, I went back through and the only other "con" I really saw that was directed towards this specific idea and not just the problem in general other than "The list already works when it's there, why rock the boat?" was your point about sapping chapters for coin. While I admit this is a valid potential concern, it's already a concern with the system as-is, and how is that different than if I show up at your logistics with 100 Cause Mort potions from Ohio and Merchant on my card asking for coin, or show up with 300g worth of alchemy, sell it to your local players, then come back to Ohio with all your coin? I mean, if the 100g swan shows up and someone wants a workshop, give them a workshop and a tag for a swan worth 90g. Problem solved.
I think if I had a problem player doing something like trying to sell me 100 potions via merchant, I'll just require them to be properly repped to be accepted to at least lower my costs :mrgreen:
 

Wraith

Newbie
Lurin said:
Maxondaerth said:
Dave, I went back through and the only other "con" I really saw that was directed towards this specific idea and not just the problem in general other than "The list already works when it's there, why rock the boat?" was your point about sapping chapters for coin. While I admit this is a valid potential concern, it's already a concern with the system as-is, and how is that different than if I show up at your logistics with 100 Cause Mort potions from Ohio and Merchant on my card asking for coin, or show up with 300g worth of alchemy, sell it to your local players, then come back to Ohio with all your coin? I mean, if the 100g swan shows up and someone wants a workshop, give them a workshop and a tag for a swan worth 90g. Problem solved.
I think if I had a problem player doing something like trying to sell me 100 potions via merchant, I'll just require them to be properly repped to be accepted to at least lower my costs :mrgreen:

And you'd have a bit of a customer service issue. Potion reps aren't chapter property, hence do not have to be turned in when a tag is, and essentially forcing a player to donate reps to your chapter in order to use a skill that's on their character card is dirty pool.
 
Lurin said:
Maxondaerth said:
Dave, I went back through and the only other "con" I really saw that was directed towards this specific idea and not just the problem in general other than "The list already works when it's there, why rock the boat?" was your point about sapping chapters for coin. While I admit this is a valid potential concern, it's already a concern with the system as-is, and how is that different than if I show up at your logistics with 100 Cause Mort potions from Ohio and Merchant on my card asking for coin, or show up with 300g worth of alchemy, sell it to your local players, then come back to Ohio with all your coin? I mean, if the 100g swan shows up and someone wants a workshop, give them a workshop and a tag for a swan worth 90g. Problem solved.
I think if I had a problem player doing something like trying to sell me 100 potions via merchant, I'll just require them to be properly repped to be accepted to at least lower my costs :mrgreen:
Hey,

We've never required that of you in Chicago... thanks for the idea though. :D Just for owners, though... :twisted:
 

Gilwing

Baron
Alliance Logistics
Dave said:
Alavatar said:
I am slightly confused ...

I am seeing several people referencing Logistics with regards to Evaluatable items. What is meant by that?

I can see using these items to pay for production or workshops since they should be treated at logistics as currency, but I hope people aren't using the skill Merchant to "sell back" these items. Merchant only allows you to get the production value of an item back and evaluatable items have no production value, just a cp value.
If the book does not mention that Merchants can trade in non-magical items for their IG worth then that is probably a slip in the wording of the rulebook.
So we have been playing the CO: Merchant and eval item wrong for all these years?
 
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