Experiences of a Fighter in 2.0

aside: my chapter is heavily celestial with the bulk of our fighters either making new celestial characters or respecing into them as we speak.

as for warrior stuff:

we just had a caster admit to having 65 armor in 2.0 I understand vauguely that everyones armor is going to shoot way up while damage for warriors goes way down but with that kind of armor and the ability to cast protectives on themselves and swing a sword what do they need a warrior they're just gonna have to keep picking up for?
 
mikestrauss said:
Honestly, I feel like you didn't read my post at all, except for the last few lines. I literally talk about HM cloaks and banes throughout the second paragraph. I specifically mention the rate at which you can get them and the limitations of them. I didn't dismiss their value. I weighed it and gave it a fair accounting.

-MS
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I...don't know what happened...my browser didn't load that part of your post yesterday when I replied. o_O
 
Mechtofd said:
we just had a caster admit to having 65 armor in 2.0 I understand vauguely that everyones armor is going to shoot way up while damage for warriors goes way down but with that kind of armor and the ability to cast protectives on themselves and swing a sword what do they need a warrior they're just gonna have to keep picking up for?
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The Steelsoul Paragon allows the Celestial Armor High Magic to be Natural Armor (therefore do not need to purchase WEA) that can go up to 65. In addition, when the Paragon's Celestial Armor is full their Weapon Profs add to Wand Damage. Not to mention the Steelsoul's Level 5 Active Ability allows the character to use 7th Level and above spells as Resists for Command, Necromancy, Poison, and Binding.
 
Graham Wolsey said:
I don't understand this argument at all in the context of the rules as proposed.

A Fighter swinging 50s is certainly horrible for the gap between the new players and the old players. But assuming all that Fighter did was pick up Weapon Profs that costs 720 build.
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Unfortunately I don't have time to give a complete reply to this now, but archers/2H weapon users under the current system can be throwing 50s constantly at approximately 460-470 build (a more realistic target is 500 build) - it takes just over 30 profs to get there, and that's not counting DA/slayers. When you throw those in, a character can be throwing 50s from a bow at at appropriate monsters at less than 40th level (30th, if you assume tons of vorpal seriouses but now we're beyond the realm of 'constant damage').

I don't think you realize that we're already there. This is not a pipe dream sometime in the future with 72nd level characters.

That does not negate your point about 72nd level characters and I fully realize that (72nd level characters are pretty ridiculous no matter which way you look at them). The point I'm trying to make is that throwing/swinging 50s all day long is eminently reachable under the current system, and it's a real problem that we will see more of each year that things continue as they are. Especially with Magic Items in the mix, but even without them.

-Bryan
 
Polare said:
Unfortunately I don't have time to give a complete reply to this now, but archers/2H weapon users under the current system can be throwing 50s constantly at approximately 460-470 build (a more realistic target is 500 build) - it takes just over 30 profs to get there, and that's not counting DA/slayers. When you throw those in, a character can be throwing 50s from a bow at at appropriate monsters at less than 40th level (30th, if you assume tons of vorpal seriouses but now we're beyond the realm of 'constant damage').

I don't think you realize that we're already there. This is not a pipe dream sometime in the future with 72nd level characters.

That does not negate your point about 72nd level characters and I fully realize that (72nd level characters are pretty ridiculous no matter which way you look at them). The point I'm trying to make is that throwing/swinging 50s all day long is eminently reachable under the current system, and it's a real problem that we will see more of each year that things continue as they are. Especially with Magic Items in the mix, but even without them.

-Bryan
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Why is having a huge column not a problem but swinging damage a problem?

This is the question constantly unanswered.
 
I'm pretty sure I said it earlier in this thread (though it may have been another), templars translate much better to the tank role in our game than fighters. Fighters translate better to DPS.

Steelsoul is just the natural extension of that, but that doesn't negate fighters in any meaningful way. At the risk of repeating myself (okay, more than just the risk), fighter high armor and body is a support feature for persistent damage output. Steelsoul does not work the same way. The high armor of Steelsoul is primarily a way to beef up the only modest body total to one that is effectively high in order to allow the Steelsoul to absorb damage as well as it avoids take-out effects.

However, all this defensive function comes at a significant hit to damage output. Unlike combining profs and BS, magic damage and prof damage doesn't stack (with one exception that I will get to). These are two fully separate damage trees, both of which have increased costs over pure classes (scholars and fighters). Subtract another 50 points of XP for getting Steelsoul and you have a PC that deals significantly lower damage than an equal level fighter or scholar.

In return, the PC gets some very good defensive tricks. As already noted, armor total allows the average Steelsoul to have roughly the same total points (body + armor) as an equal level fighter (maybe more). Extremely limited self healing and moderately limited armor repair supports this high total. Best of all, the Steelsoul basically doubles all cloaks (and sorta doubles banes) and can prevent many nasty effects at the cost of a high level spell. However, it should be mentioned that the Steelsoul has significantly fewer 7th - 9th level spells than an equal level scholar, making this a very costly feature. Finally, until the Steelsoul takes any damage, all spells are reflected if they would be guarded.

In terms of offense, though, the Steelsoul gets almost nothing. Delivering a Subjugate or Shatter as elemental by weapon instead of spell by packet is a trivial boost. Body carrier is also a trivial boost against the majority of enemies in the game. The extra wand damage is nice, effectively allowing the Steelsoul to deal wand damage equal to an equal level scholar, but this comes with limitations. First, the Steelsoul, both due to having spent XP on the paragon path and due to XP spent on fighter skills, has much fewer total wand packets per day (probably less than half) than an equal level scholar. Second, it is only an alpha strike ability. The moment the Steelsoul takes even one point of damage, the ability goes away.

While it is possible that a Scholar could take this paragon path, the scholar basically had to waste 90 XP to get into it, meaning the path basically cost 140 XP total instead of the usual 50 XP and gets almost no benefit from the 3rd level of the path.

But back to the original point, a Steelsoul templar simply doesn't replace the role of the fighter. Yes it can absorb damage / effects well, but the Steelsoul has a nearly anemic damage output compared to an equal level fighter or scholar and the need to save 7th+ level spells for defense means it has almost no real take-out effects available (just partial disable effects like bind or shun). For some fights the modest persistent damage from a tank frame will be optimal. But, on average, the slow damage just doesn't hold up when a nearby fighter is pounding face.

A Steelsoul is an awesome character on modules, however.

-MS
 
that anemic damage output is kinda moot from a fighters perspective when you have all those anti spell protectives. I know some people are focusing purely on damage output but the point I'm trying to make is that as they stand fighters cannot stay in the fight long enough to feel like they contribute.

IE the problem that was mentioned before about new players who might come into the game thinking being a warrior would be fun then feel like they wasted their time and money.

If we're not high damage output dps types and we can't last long enough to be tanks then what is the warriors role? how is it balanced against the other classes?
 
Graham Wolsey said:
Why is having a huge column not a problem but swinging damage a problem?

This is the question constantly unanswered.
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I have answered this question time and time again, but I will answer it one more time, so that it is 100% clear. Columns are a limited resource. They run out. I have used an entire 5 column in a single battle. I have seen 8 column casters walk into a module with almost no spent spells and walk out down to fumes. Meditate will help with this a little, but the simple truth is that spells are a limited resource no matter how many you have. And they tend to disappear even quicker when you take into account defensive spells / healing, because these can be used effectively between battles (and often are).

Even a 12 column caster can find themself out of meaningful spells to use long before reset. A fighter / rogue will never run out of sword swinging ability.

-MS

P.S. - There is a second part of the problem, but it is a more subtle point that not everyone will fully understand. Most spells don't meaningfully stack. However damage does. Thus the problem of big damage is compounded by player numbers more than any problem that might arise from large columns.
 
Mechtofd said:
that anemic damage output is kinda moot from a fighters perspective when you have all those anti spell protectives. I know some people are focusing purely on damage output but the point I'm trying to make is that as they stand fighters cannot stay in the fight long enough to feel like they contribute.
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Our playtesting this weekend generated relevant examples that support your observation.
 
Graham Wolsey said:
Why is having a huge column not a problem but swinging damage a problem?

This is the question constantly unanswered.
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I don't believe I ever stated that a huge column *wasn't* a problem - but it's a problem of an entirely different sort. Please note my comment above that *any* character at ultra-high levels gets ridiculous. To be honest, my personal opinion is such - the longer I play Alliance (and I've been playing for quite a while now) the more I think that an entirely uncapped leveling system is not good for the game. But that's a bit of a digression, and not something I'm in a position to change.

Back to the issue at hand.

Mike Strauss' response lined up reasonably well with my own thoughts on the issue. By 10th level or so, a scholar has a 9th level spell and a few points of High Magic. At that point, said scholar can throw every effect they will ever throw - and they can *never* make them any stronger. There's no way to make a Prison or Death "better", nor is there any way to make a Cure Wounds or Evocation Bolt do more than 45. Maybe you can change the delivery a little, or Meditate them if you miss, but you can't keep improving those the way that static damage keeps improving. Eventually you reach a point where the Fighter is throwing out huge damage each swing, the monsters have ridiculous amounts of body points, and the only thing that's worth taking is takeout effects (honestly, we're at that point today in high-level games). That contributes just as much to the 'take out' problem as anything else.

Here's my personal ideal world. When you fight monsters in Alliance, each one has its own strengths and weaknesses. Some will have high body and be more susceptible to takeout spells. Some will have lower body but have more defenses against takeout spells. Some will be in between. Fighters have reasons to use their takeout effects because there's monsters they're better against (Stun Limb, Shatter, Eviscerate). Scholars have reasons to take damage spells, *not just* takeout spells, because they need those sometimes too. Etc. etc. etc. In 1.3, everything has to be high body *and* have tons of resistances to takeout spells. We can work on those issues with 2.0 (and are trying to), but players have to be willing to do so in constructive ways.

Graham Wolsey said:
If you are running out of spells as a 12 column caster then you are a really really bad scholar and your data isn't relevant.
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I don't know that this is a very constructive comment, I have to say. As someone who plays a 13 column scholar, I regularly run out of spells (well, useful ones anyways, there's always days that Banish or Dispel doesn't come in useful and the like). Perhaps that means I am a really really bad scholar and my data isn't relevant? I don't personally believe so, and I certainly hope the Owners don't think so. I'd like to believe that everyone's experiences are relevant, even those I don't personally agree with.
 
mikestrauss said:
Columns are a limited resource. They run out.
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This is very true, and it should absolutely be part of the conversation.

There are several baseline mechanics that have been added to the game that meaningfully impact this though (positively and negatively, though mostly positively, which isn't necessarily a bad thing).

For example:
Higher level Spell Slots may now be used to memorize lower level spells. You could now use a 4th level Spell Slot to memorize a 1st, 2nd, or 3rd level spell if you like. This means it's easier for casters to "load up" or "focus" on one spell/effect. This can very much lead to monsters eventually showing up with more defenses against those effects, which hurts lower-level characters in "town" or "joint" encounters.

Meditate may be used baseline (which you mentioned) for all classes. This is certainly useful for melee, but by far more useful for Scholars. Further, there are some Paragons that encourage purposeful flubbing to gain a "free" packet of damage. Meditate back, get more free packets.
Enhanced Meditate - with 3 buys (9 build) cuts Meditate time by 90%, meaning with 3 buys you can meditate back 10x the number of skills in the baseline allotted time. If you can refit in combat for 1 minute, it's certainly possible get a spell or two back while combat is on-going around you (just sit in the armor refit area). Out-of-combat meditate of 10 minutes gains 10 spells back that were missed/flubbed. This allows casters to be far, far, far, far more sustainable than they were before.
Quicken Meditation (Ritual) knocks the time down to 3 seconds.

Outside of that, I do have a complaint for Scholars specifically and everyone else in general:
Scholars (Spellsword/Adept too) are directly screwed over by the "Battle Magic Spells" (protection/enhancement mainly) no longer lasting indefinitely. This also screws over Fighters and Rogues too, though, because now at the start of every game, their Scholar friend has to spend a column of spells per person to give them pre-casts. And explain to me how a 10+ level caster can't walk into game with a full boat of buffs? Did they just somehow forget to buff themselves and their friends? So confounding.
 
polare said:
One thing I want to point out from the "Clarifications of Intent on 2.0 changes:" post stickied in this forum:



Please keep in mind that intended balance is *not* for single characters. I would (hesitantly) state that it should never have been about single characters. Alliance is intended for a coherent team of PCs working together. While there are certainly cases where individuals can (and should!) shine, soloing all the time is not one of them.

In 1.3, I'll start pretty categorically that Fighters are the end-all be-all class. Much of this is due to Magic Items in the current system. I can be a 40th level Fighter with a 40th level Scholar in my pocket. I *cannot* be a 40th level Scholar with a 40th level Fighter in my pocket - the Ritual system simply doesn't allow for that. Clearly, opinions differ on how much the skill system contributes to that difference, but suffice it to say that it also plays a part on how useful a character is throughout the entire day.

Part of the stated intent of 2.0 is to support teamwork. This means both in a single fight and throughout the day. It is entirely possible that 2.0 has swung one way or the other too far; I don't think anyone would say that it is 100% perfect as-is. However, I *do* personally believe that 2.0 is far better balanced for a well-tooled team than 1.3 is, which is almost always most optimal at the high end as a team of Fighters (since they can get that lovely high body total, high output consistent damage that doesn't run out, and pockets of scholar-reproducing magic items).

Fighters alone shouldn't be able to succeed or excel in every scenario. Neither should casters (or any other class). Hopefully everyone is on the same page about that. What the Owners want in 2.0 is for every class to feel important and useful - but also to need other classes to succeed.

Please keep that in mind when you're talking about respective balance. In 2.0, a Fighter teamed up with a Scholar should, IMO, be generally more efficient than a two-Scholar team over the course of a day. Classes and characters are absolutely intended to work together, not in a vacuum. That's part of the stated 2.0 intent.

So when you're talking about a single Fighter facing off against a single Scholar, you're definitely talking about a situation that is *not* the focus of 2.0. It's worth talking about and considering, but it's also worth spending some time and brainpower on what that Fighter can do when he's properly supported by a Scholar (and vice versa).

-Bryan
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Sounds like magic items are your problem, not constant damage. Just remove Magic Items and that should fix it.
 
A couple of my personal thoughts on your thoughts:

Avaran said:
This is very true, and it should absolutely be part of the conversation.

There are several baseline mechanics that have been added to the game that meaningfully impact this though (positively and negatively, though mostly positively, which isn't necessarily a bad thing).

For example:
Higher level Spell Slots may now be used to memorize lower level spells. You could now use a 4th level Spell Slot to memorize a 1st, 2nd, or 3rd level spell if you like. This means it's easier for casters to "load up" or "focus" on one spell/effect. This can very much lead to monsters eventually showing up with more defenses against those effects, which hurts lower-level characters in "town" or "joint" encounters.
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I see this as a "quality of life" improvement akin to what was done for Fighter/Rogue skill prereq changes. Both schools have "dead" spell levels as-is (though opinions will differ as to which those are!). The 1.3 rules really don't support characters who want to focus on one specific school of magic, which is something that has been thematically asked for since the game started. "I want to be an Evocation specialist!" (Nightsky, Luke). "I want to just do protectives and healing for my buddies!" (Peter). "I want to go all-out on Earth offense!" (you know who ;) ). 1.3 doesn't support that character concept well, but allowing memorizing down opens up those character concepts - and people *want* to play those concepts, just like some people want to play the "all the tricks" Fighters or Rogues without focusing just on prof/prof/parry/prof/prof/parry/etc.

I get what you're saying about being able to "focus fire" on specific weaknesses. To me that's a risk that's worth taking to allow characters to do what they've always wanted to do, but realistically I don't see it happening a lot. Honestly? I kind of expect it to make it more balanced overall - specifically because I forsee many people forgoeing some number of takeout spells to drop down to Spell Shields (and some number of other detrimental effect spells to drop down to Weapon Shields). IMO anything that encourages people to memorize *fewer* takeout spells is a good thing, and I think this will have a significant effect in that direction. From the Plot/Monster side, I'd much rather have people take defensives than takeouts.

Meditate may be used baseline (which you mentioned) for all classes. This is certainly useful for melee, but by far more useful for Scholars.
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True that! In my personal opinion, though, it's a much bigger deal for low level/starting players than more experienced ones. I'll be honest here - my aim is waaaaaaay better than most any starting player's, just due to years of experience. In terms of an overall percentage of spent spells being "regained" through Meditate, newer players are likely to get much more mileage than older players. Or, to put it another way, that 10th level Scholar who has a teardrop up to a single 9th might Meditate half their spells back; the 40th level Scholar with a 12 column might Meditate a quarter of their spells back. Opinons will vary on whether this is appropriate/balanced, but I think it's a point worth thinking about when looking at Meditate.

The flip side, for the melee classes, is simply that they don't have as many per-day effects as a scholar. They're built more for consistent damage. That said, I honestly expect my Rogue to get more mileage out of Meditate than my Templar (maybe not as much as my Scholar, though). Any per-day I use through my bow has maybe a 50% chance of hitting in the first place. Stun Limbs can bounce off shields. Even melee Assassinates/Terminates sometimes go awry when the target turns at the wrong time. I *love* the prospect of being able to get those back, and it makes the character's per-day skills SO MUCH more useful throughout the course of a day.

Further, there are some Paragons that encourage purposeful flubbing to gain a "free" packet of damage. Meditate back, get more free packets.
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The intent is that anywhere "extra packets" appear does not give any advantage to Meditating things back. If you miss with your first packet and get a second one, but hit with that second one, you shouldn't be able to Meditate the first back. Pretty sure we got the wording in place for this though I can't check right now, unfortunately. But that's certainly the intent.

-Bryan
 
Thanks for your thoughts above, Bryan. I appreciate your viewpoint and generally like the intent/thoughts behind it all.

Polare said:
The intent is that anywhere "extra packets" appear does not give any advantage to Meditating things back. If you miss with your first packet and get a second one, but hit with that second one, you shouldn't be able to Meditate the first back. Pretty sure we got the wording in place for this though I can't check right now, unfortunately. But that's certainly the intent.
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I'll look at it again and see if it's still there and let you know. It's possible I MAY have been looking at an older version of the Paragon package.
 
Shades said:
Except not by fighters in 2.0, since they have to hit the wand. Also many of the high level things I fight with wands have them enchanted and spirit locked.
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Since wands aren't a legal weapon and can't be struck, wouldn't that just mean you hit the person and call your target?
 
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