Freud, NERO, and you.

[jpariury]

This one pretty much needed its own thread, so I've split it off onto its own

Yeah, it's just a game, which means it's supposed to be fun. So, when you're not having fun anymore, it's generally considered the good idea to change what you're doing or quit...

Yeah, my own funk that I went through with NERO would probably be instructive in that regard. If you (in the non-specific) are getting so worked up about the game, step away from the table for a while. Play a different character, NPC, or just don't play for a while. In general, I find that many LARP players tend to invest to much of their ego (in the classic Freudian sense of "conscious sense of self") in their LARP involvement. I heartily recommend doing things non-NERO to help avoid this. For myself, that's meant playing poker with guys at work, getting involved in an online community, shooting pool, and recently, playing paintball and auditioning for a play (Which I was cast in... woohoo!!!).

There's probably a good case to be made for psychoanalysis here. Language is helpful in this regard. If, when discussing the game in an OOG context, you start referring to the character in the first person, you're probably self-identifying a bit too much. Simple phrases like "Ooo, I hate Yasmay" and "Plot keeps trying to kill me!!!" can be both indicative and causative of that sort of issue.

1) Indicative - It reflects that you are subsuming your own identity in place of the character. Plot is not trying to kill you. At worst, plot is trying to kill the character. You are not your character, and vice versa. Likewise, hopefully, you do not hate Yasmay. Would you make similar statements, or experience similar emotions to a character being portrayed opposite yours in a play? Would you experience such trauma from the antics of Big Bird and Mister Snufalufugus? If, at this stage, you're saying "But I can turn them off if I want, so they don't bother me as much. I can't do that at NERO." then you're beginning to get my point. If the ability to turn it off gives you the power to endure, then the ability to walk away from the game should give you the power to endure the antics of a variety of characters.

2) Causative - Much of L. Ron Hubbard's "Dianetics" is, at best, a crock, IMO. One thing that I do believe he was on to, though, was how language used is responded to by the Id, or "primal self". At it's essence, he suggests that the language we use and hear is taken at it's most literal meaning by the unconscious self. In context of NERO, when we begin to use such language as "Plot is trying to kill me", we create within our subconscious an instinctive sense of threat not to the characters we are playing, but to ourselves. We enter the game, and our interactions with plot, turn into an adverserial relationship. Likewise, saying and hearing ourselves say "I hate Yasmay" creates an actual emotional sense of angst everytime we hear her ankle bells. Compare "I hate Yasmay" to "Kerjal hates Yasmay". The second phrasing doesn't have the same emotional feel to it, and it shouldn't. An emotionally healthy approach to any game should have that same level of disconnectedness.

For all the flak and fun we have poking at Jack Chick's Dark Dungeons, the phrase that fits much of what I see is in panel 9: "Ever since her character in the game got killed, it's as though a part of her died." I see players end up in such angst over getting their character targetted by plot or other players by anything they don't like. They probably need to remember to step back and do something other than play that character for a while.

Statements like "you're trying to get me to just quit playing Character X" don't guilt me in any way shape or form. If I had a problem with the way someone was interacting with me in-game, I'd discuss it with them and see if we could adjust what is happening IG to make things enjoyable for both of us. I firmly believe that we're all here to have fun and enjoy one another's company. If good-natured OOG ribbing hurts us, then we need to ask ourselves "Why?". None of us are victims here. If you cannot mock a character you play, and enjoy the mocking, then you probably can't see the dividing line between you, and the character. So, my thought here is that this statement: "So, when you're not having fun anymore, it's generally considered the good idea to change what you're doing or quit..." is incomplete. It should most likely read as "So, when you're not having fun anymore, it's generally considered the good idea to change what you're doing or quit, because you've probably forgotten how to just play."

Am I perfect in this regard? Heck no. In fact, it probably makes me all the more qualified to offer this advice and analysis.

 

[Balryn]

I second that. After playing and running this game for so many years, I've seen a whole bunch of people who connected way to much with the character they played.

Some connection is good. Doing things we cannot do in real life is part of the reason many of us play LARPs. It's fun to express the small parts of your personality that remain quiet throughout most of the year.

I usually saw this mostly when I killed characters (both as player and plot). The difference in reactions from the players was amazing. One person would fly off the handle kicking and screaming that the character died and it was so unfair, while the other smiled and said "wow, I didn't even see that coming".

For me I specifically sat down and created two characters who had very detailed personal traits that expressed little pieces of who I am. I am not normally vindictive, but one of my characters is. I am not derogatory, but one of my characters loves to push people.

Like JP, I've probably had a few events where I connected way to heavilly with my character. I joined plot for a while and got slaughtered as a variety of NPCs.

I used to jokingly say to people- "You aren't my friend until I've killed you"

I enjoy the game and I expect everyone there to be playing because they enjoy it.

~Barry

Which reminds me JP... I haven't killed Gregor yet. :laugh:

 

[Balryn]

I would also like to add to my statement-

That I think this affects everyone who LARPs / RPGs to some extent. I have seen both staff and players at NERO become way to invested in what they were doing. In actuality I think I've seen more staff members during the past ten years who "bonded" way to much with an NPC role and made it a "pet".

It is a game. It should be fun. If it leaves you mentally drained in a bad way or makes you feel like you are not having fun... don't play it the same way.

Try changing both little and huge pieces of the game you play. Try to change your character and explore who you can be.

 

[Zwingll]

[...]and auditioning for a play (Which I was cast in... woohoo!!!).[...]

YAY!!!! let me know when it is i would LOVE to come see you in a play!!!!

 

[Yasmay Laetshi]

Something to add to all that would be to be on guard about how similar your character may be to your out-of-game self. Most primary characters tend to have a majority of traits similar to your own simply for the ease of rollplaying something without thinking too much. In these cases if someone were to say Yasmay is too silly, Amber might be inclined to feel that as a personal slight because they are both equally silly. It's important to remember that this is a game and comments made in-game are not the same as the feelings of the out-of-game person towards your out-of-game self.

Additionally, it can be very helpful to play a secondary, particularly one that is the opposite of your primary simply for the purpose of distancing yourself emotionally and expiriencing the game in a much more lighthearted way knowing that you've really got nothing to loose.

That's my two bits.

Amber

 

[Roan Dari Alki]

I would agree on the getting a secondary thing. I don't feel nearly as attached to my secondary, this is better because I can allow that character to do things that might get her killed and not care as much. but then.. not only is my primary easier to play (since i didn't know the game at all when i started, so she turned out more like my oog self) but i've put more time, effort, and money into her. i suppose for me the difference is mainly, my primary is fun because it's easy, and she's very different from me in ways that are fun to act out. And my secondary takes more effort to play, but i don't care as much about her.

-Carmen

 

[Sarah]

I wonder where Freud comes into it when you feel obligated to play a character that hardly anybody likes and that you want a break from.

I think there's definitely a big difference between not wanting to play a character because you're getting too wrapped up in it, and not wanting to play a character because a game should be fun, not WORK.

 

[Sarah]

Addendum: That was not a slam on Plot. I have no problems with Plot targetting my character for pretty much anything (including soul sucking). In fact, I've thoroughly enjoyed much of the targetting my character has been a "victim" of from Plot over the past year and a half. And that includes 2 deaths.

 

[Slice]

I wonder where Freud comes into it when you feel obligated to play a character that hardly anybody likes and that you want a break from.

See the comments above regarding the Id and Ego. "Obligated to play" should never exist. From my own experience, such "obligations" indicate that we've become too wrapped up in the character to conceive of playing another character.

Re: that hardly anybody likes - This can be a fun thing or not, depending on whether or not you mean IG or OOG.

 

[jpariury]

That was me, not Holly. shakes fist at Holly

 

[Sarah]

I have no problems conceiving the concept of playing a new character. Have secondary, have costuming, have everything but the racial makeup I need to play it.

I'm certain the frustration and obligation stems from the unique position I play within the game. I actually got a decent look at what would happen last event if I were to not play Diera for a period of time at this current point. I didn't like it.

 

[Kauss]

I second that. After playing and running this game for so many years, I've seen a whole bunch of people who connected way to much with the character they played.

Some connection is good. Doing things we cannot do in real life is part of the reason many of us play LARPs. It's fun to express the small parts of your personality that remain quiet throughout most of the year.

I usually saw this mostly when I killed characters (both as player and plot). The difference in reactions from the players was amazing. One person would fly off the handle kicking and screaming that the character died and it was so unfair, while the other smiled and said "wow, I didn't even see that coming".

For me I specifically sat down and created two characters who had very detailed personal traits that expressed little pieces of who I am. I am not normally vindictive, but one of my characters is. I am not derogatory, but one of my characters loves to push people.

Like JP, I've probably had a few events where I connected way to heavilly with my character. I joined plot for a while and got slaughtered as a variety of NPCs.

I used to jokingly say to people- "You aren't my friend until I've killed you"

I enjoy the game and I expect everyone there to be playing because they enjoy it.

~Barry

Which reminds me JP... I haven't killed Gregor yet. :laugh:

Keep in mind, not everyone plays for the same reasons as well. I know some people love the player vs player death life crap.
Myself I think that when it gets past a certion point, its not any fun, and a distraction from why I play. I prefer less player vs player, becouse in all honesty if I wanted that, I could pick fights with real people.
The point being, people may be getting annoyed becouse they wanted something else from the game, and others are making it no fun. I know if I picked a player's character, and killed them over and over (as an example) I might have fun, and they might not. I know people who would love to play a mostly non-combatent in game, or those who would like to only investigate mysterys. And there are those who like to do the player vs player power plays and showmenship. When the diffrent groups mix, there can be problems and reactions. If you have this big plan where you hunt down and rez someone who likes the player vs player, you might get a "well done" from them. Do that same thing to someone who plays for the politics, or "good guy" aspect, and you might piss them off, as your fun is counter to their fun. Its all in the eye of the beholder.

 

[Kauss]

I have no problems conceiving the concept of playing a new character. Have secondary, have costuming, have everything but the racial makeup I need to play it.

I'm certain the frustration and obligation stems from the unique position I play within the game. I actually got a decent look at what would happen last event if I were to not play Diera for a period of time at this current point. I didn't like it.

If your really worried, work with some other players/characters ooc and ic, and see if someone can hold your spot with some warning. If its planed time off, and people know, it can normaly be worked around.

 

[Anonymous]

Addendum: That was not a slam on Plot. I have no problems with Plot targetting my character for pretty much anything (including soul sucking). In fact, I've thoroughly enjoyed much of the targetting my character has been a "victim" of from Plot over the past year and a half. And that includes 2 deaths.

I'd worry about this train of thought before it got to far, because it doesn't look like it's all that far from the Deep, Dark Path of Metagaming. Not the 'not raggin' on plot' part, but the "Ok with what Plot does to my pc, just not other pcs" part. PCs are part of the plot. They're more important then NPCs. Just because most PCs don't have the cajones to actually kill each other doesn't mean that they wont take it out on each other in other ways. Especially by being difficult. Oi. Play your pc and deal with the difficult people, or play a different one and deal with new difficult people for new reasons. Or don't play and don't. The world will survive. It did when everyone went to Ironwood, so anyone who gives you grief for not being in town next time that didn't give you grief for not being in when game was there runs that fine line of metagaming themselves.

 

[Seattle_Jim]

I'd worry about this train of thought before it got to far, because it doesn't look like it's all that far from the Deep, Dark Path of Metagaming. Not the 'not raggin' on plot' part, but the "Ok with what Plot does to my pc, just not other pcs" part. PCs are part of the plot. They're more important then NPCs. Just because most PCs don't have the cajones to actually kill each other doesn't mean that they wont take it out on each other in other ways. Especially by being difficult. Oi. Play your pc and deal with the difficult people, or play a different one and deal with new difficult people for new reasons. Or don't play and don't. The world will survive. It did when everyone went to Ironwood, so anyone who gives you grief for not being in town next time that didn't give you grief for not being in when game was there runs that fine line of metagaming themselves.

I'm not seeing the meta-gaming here.

My take on what started this conversation (which I can see going down its own deep, dark path) is that comments were made oog about an ig scenario, which could or could not be true, that could easily be interpreted as a taunt (not saying that was the intent) and I can see where that would not be fun. Taunting a character IG is one thing, OOG is another.

As to an obligation to play a character... that doesn't sound great either. You should play a character because you want to, not because you feel you have to. I know that I like seeing certain characters, but plot is trying to move away from certain characters being needed for x.

As an aside, much of Freud's work is no longer viewed as creditable.

 

[Anonymous]

Which part do you mean, the using oog information as a basis for IG action, or the using oog information of an IG circumstance to make an oog decision? The latter I could understand, it's not really that close, but it could be carried that way pretty easily. The former, that's pretty much the definition.

 

[Kauss]

I'd worry about this train of thought before it got to far, because it doesn't look like it's all that far from the Deep, Dark Path of Metagaming. Not the 'not raggin' on plot' part, but the "Ok with what Plot does to my pc, just not other pcs" part. PCs are part of the plot. They're more important then NPCs. Just because most PCs don't have the cajones to actually kill each other doesn't mean that they wont take it out on each other in other ways. Especially by being difficult. Oi. Play your pc and deal with the difficult people, or play a different one and deal with new difficult people for new reasons. Or don't play and don't. The world will survive. It did when everyone went to Ironwood, so anyone who gives you grief for not being in town next time that didn't give you grief for not being in when game was there runs that fine line of metagaming themselves.

You know, I cant agree this is a bad thing. The reason is easy 1st, I trust plot to have reasons for messing with me, or killing me. A player may do it for "fun" or some flimsy IG reason, or a good reason. The problem is, with plot I have checks and balances and etc. with another player it could just be the player or character doesn't like something, so plays the bully. It may be metagamming, but much like safety some meta is around to make the game more fun. If we had freeform player vs player combat all the time, I and many others would find a new game.

On that note, though an npc is less important than a player, the players (note the s) are more important than any one player, and the NPCs or all of plot is also more important. If you, the player, wants to make/do something that no one else in game will have fun with, you may be out of luck. If you the player do not like something the NPCs do (but the rest of the game does) you may be out of luck.

There is a balance that needs to be held, and there are a number of players who (In the past and now) like to do things just to do things that are conterary to the way the game setting is made. Now if they are doing this for character reasons (dramatic hero, good backround, etc.) more power to them, but if they expect the whole game setting to change becouse of what "they" want, they may need to see what everyone else wants as well.
As I said before, its all what you are looking for in the game, and respect as well. IG it would be easy to roll all the new charicters IG, but ooc, it would drive the new players away, so most people don't do it. That is an example where players outweigh player.

 

[Seattle_Jim]

Which part do you mean, the using oog information as a basis for IG action, or the using oog information of an IG circumstance to make an oog decision? The latter I could understand, it's not really that close, but it could be carried that way pretty easily. The former, that's pretty much the definition.

I understand the term metagaming.

I'm not seeing where oog info was used as a basis for an ig action...

 

[Anonymous]

I suppose that's one major difference then. I don't have any more trust in plot then I have in any particular pc or npc not to do something for a reason that I think is justified. They're all players. Players can have faults, or do something to ruin someone else's fun. They might know they're doing it, or they might not. Everybody wants something different from the game. Sure there are some checks and balances for plot, but sometimes they fail. There are checks and balances for PCs, too. Somebody kills you, pisses you off, or robs your buddy, you have the ability to go whack that person. Thats a check right there. If you're playing against the curve long enough, the game isn't going to be fun for you. You'll find another game that is all PvP, or all RP, or that's your style.

Metagaming exists in a lot of places. Not rolling the newbie PC who trys to theive your sword, but lecture him instead is metagaming if you would have rolled some NPC for trying the same thing. It's common practice though, and I don't think anyone will think less of you for trying to give the newbie a better impression of the game. But it's still metagaming in the morning.

 

[Sarah]

I think he's really refering to the whole sentiment of "plot can screw with me, but PCs bug off!" which isn't actually what I meant. What I meant was that, while sucky things have happened to my character, plot has made an effort to make every experience fun for me. Players, on the other hand, seem to generally be more interested in their own fun, to the exclusion of all others in some cases. The problem is, with roleplaying games, you generally cannot think only of your own fun when playing them. Other people are playing them too and they're going to want to have fun as well.