[.11] High Level Build Rate Change and Or Cap

[Paladin of Earth]

Hey Folks please chat about the topics listed here. This is a continuation of another discussion. Lets try to keep both threads on topic and thus easier to follow.

https://alliancelarp.com/forum/threads/timeline-for-magic-item-conversion.38575/

 

[Tantarus]

if you think the owners haven't heard that you're wrong. There's a proposal up for voting right now to assist with it, as is further discussion taking place about how to further alleviate this fear.

This is actually really good to hear. As I too am worried alot about this. Hence trying to hit some playtests. That said I hope this includes magic items, They are so build specific now... They really dont make it easy to change classes and still have them be useful.

 

[Alkalin3]

I've been keeping my eye all over the place and trying to really push through feedback I think is valuable asap.

This idea that came through is based directly on feedback you'd said in discord in Oregon (and Rick has helped polish this and sell it), and from Traverse City and Somi Players.

There's a lot to learn in 2.0 and some people don't even get a playtest. So, people are going to land in unhappy places. That's the reality of it.

But, honestly even we put that aside. 1.3 is a lot to learn and you can still make mistakes (I know a few scholars who regretted shield for years). A change like this has been needed for 15 years.
I can talk more about the exact details of it after it hopefully passes (tell your owner to vote for it). I don't really want to say something, then have it not pass and then people to get confused.

I know you've reached out to me privately to talk about stuff. Other people are welcome to even if we haven't met or whatever.

I certainly hadn't considered the magic item thing, it's something to keep in mind.

It seems like folks have a lot of fears. I want to help dispel those fears. We all want everyone to have a good time. And so, I hope I can help reduce stress by making these pain points go away.

 

[Draven]

I’m just wondering when we start accepting that even 2.0 breaks down once we have 90th+ level characters running around in it.

 

[tieran]

I’m just wondering when we start accepting that even 2.0 breaks down once we have 90th+ level characters running around in it.

Are there any of those currently?

I know of two just above 60 and I can guess at one or two others.

If we assume the existence of a 70th level character, then per the chart that @Auric posted, we’re looking at 7+ years before there’s a 90th level character.

 

[Draven]

....Frankly, 60th is pretty ridiculous all on its own.

My comment is mostly exaggerated. Once most characters are 40+, we’re going to have major balancing issues.

 

[tieran]

I think the slowdown to a maximum of 28 build a year (assuming you can find an event every weekend, buy monthly blankets and dragon blankets and get the NPC blanket), institutes a cap without calling it one quite nicely.

It prevents the potential alienation of long-term players, while still allowing them some amount of build growth.

 

[Draven]

I think the slowdown to a maximum of 28 build a year (assuming you can find an event every weekend, buy monthly blankets and dragon blankets and get the NPC blanket), institutes a cap without calling it one quite nicely.

It prevents the potential alienation of long-term players, while still allowing them some amount of build growth.

That’s mathematically erroneous. Unless we’re assuming Alliance is going to eventually shut down, we will eventually get to a point where long-term characters (or even short term characters played by individuals with large disposable incomes) are overloading outputs.

Let’s be real. 2.0 has dealt with power creep indirectly by putting penalties on damage gains, but those gains are inevitably surmountable by someone with Enough Build.

It’s not a real cap. It’s functionally more of a rollback.

Alienation might occur by instituting a real cap, but it’s probably better than having to go through all this nonsense again for 3.0.

 

[Tantarus]

I think the slowdown to a maximum of 28 build a year (assuming you can find an event every weekend, buy monthly blankets and dragon blankets and get the NPC blanket), institutes a cap without calling it one quite nicely.

It prevents the potential alienation of long-term players, while still allowing them some amount of build growth.

Claiming people are going to get 28 build a year seems ridiculous. Maybe some insane few. But realisiticly poeple that play in one or two chapters will get 6-12 games in a year. Add in 12 blankets for gobbies.

Realistically a high level person can expect 3.6 build a year. And honestly that kinda sucks. Not even enough for many skills.

If you play 12 games a year and gobby ever year, that is poor return. I suspect Pay no Plays will drop off in 2.0. That value is just not there. At level 40 I did 3 pay no plays this year, And got around 21 build. In 2.0 it would have been around 10ish build. 2/3rds as much after level 45.

That slow down just seems so drastic. Getting a level a year playing 12 games with gobbies seems like it would be fine, like it is now. Taking 3 years to get a level feels pretty lame honestly.

 

[Tantarus]

....Frankly, 60th is pretty ridiculous all on its own.

I disagree, I think it is great to have something to aspire too.

A level 60 or 2 with 2.0 magic items isnt that game breaking. Honestly I think now that magic items dont generate build like power that the power gap will be smaller then it ever has been in the past.

 

[Draven]

I disagree, I think it is great to have something to aspire too.

A level 60 or 2 with 2.0 magic items isnt that game breaking. Honestly I think now that magic items dont generate build like power that the power gab will be smaller then it ever has been in the past.

Why 2? Why not 30?

Why not 40?

If your game doesn’t break because only two players are Extra Elite, it’s not because your system is working as intended, it’s because you’re just lucky.

 

[Feldor]

(I'm using the term blanket in this post to mean 1 days worth of XP. So your average 2-day weekend event is 2 blankets.)

So it really depends on how much pay-no-play is being done. So this year it is possible to get credit for like 46 weekends a year in addition to 12 for GS blankets -- so assume 100+ blankets worth; and more if you NPC events or get dragonstamps. I have to assume that anyone who is playing at 50+ level is doing that. How else do you get to that level range?


And it may be this is actually part of the challenge. You are attempting to balance a system for players who play 4 weekend events a year (8 blankets) who play along side players who are getting 100+ blankets per year; and you want each of them to have fun and be engaged with your game so they keep playing.. And that spread is hard. One player is effectively getting 12x the advancement of the other. And at the same time, you want to keep supporting your most dedicated players, because they are clearly helping fund and run your game; while still encouraging new players to come and keep playing.

 

[Tantarus]

Why 2? Why not 30?

Why not 40?

If your game doesn’t break because only two players are Extra Elite, it’s not because your system is working as intended, it’s because you’re just lucky.

Disagree. I think this is on all plot and how they handle the level gap. I have played at events where I was 20th and everyone else was 1-3rd when Oregon first became a chapter. And plot made it work. Seattle plot makes it work with an apl of 12, when we are a group of 35-45s.

I think it is a sign of health if alot of players end up higher level because that shows you have player retention. The game has a lot of turn over (at least on our coast). Look how few people are over level 40 in chapters that have been around for 20+ years.

 

[tieran]

That’s mathematically erroneous. Unless we’re assuming Alliance is going to eventually shut down, we will eventually get to a point where long-term characters (or even short term characters played by individuals with large disposable incomes) are overloading outputs.

I am not sure what you are saying is wrong with the math. I didn’t say people wouldn’t get there, I simply stated how long it would take a person, with maximum possible gain, to get from 705 build to 905.

As to the disposable income: First, those players are good for a chapter. Second, they are still limited in how fast they progress because there are a finite amount of games that can be played in a year.

Let’s be real. 2.0 has dealt with power creep indirectly by putting penalties on damage gains, but those gains are inevitably surmountable by someone with Enough Build.

I agree that 2.0 puts a lot of work into trying to level out a lot of the issues between low and high level characters, but I think the timeframe of “inevitably surmountable” is exceptionally important. I, personally, were 2.0 instituted today, have to play for 19 years to get to 90th level at maximum possible build gain.

It’s not a real cap. It’s functionally more of a rollback.

I suppose, strictly read, I did say it was a cap, and it is, but in a way that doesn’t feel like one without a bunch of math.

Alienation might occur by instituting a real cap, but it’s probably better than having to go through all this nonsense again for 3.0.

Personally, I think the system should go through a fairly significant rules overhaul about once a decade. If this one staves off the problem for 10-20 years, it’s right on pace.

 

[Tantarus]

o it really depends on how much pay-no-play is being done. So this year it is possible to get credit for like 46 weekends a year in addition to 12 for GS blankets -- so assume 100+ blankets worth; and more if you NPC events or get dragonstamps.

How many people really do this? I would be surprised if it was more then 10-20 in the whole alliance. (We have 2 people that are over level 50 in the NW. Neither of which actively play) Worrying about and changing the game because of a very small portion of the game seems silly to me. It is the fringe and really doesn't need to be to build around.

I myself just started Pay no Playing this year. I did 34 levels without every using blankets or gobbies. Then I started gobbing and at 39 last year I was tired of getting 10ish build a year and wanted to finish off some skills so I did 2 pay no plays. Which doubled the amount of build I got in a year. I dont see myself doing it again for just 4 or so build in 2.0.

 

[tieran]

Claiming people are going to get 28 build a year seems ridiculous. Maybe some insane few. But realisiticly poeple that play in one or two chapters will get 6-12 games in a year. Add in 12 blankets for gobbies.

Realistically a high level person can expect 3.6 build a year. And honestly that kinda sucks. Not even enough for many skills.

If you play 12 games a year and gobby ever year, that is poor return. I suspect Pay no Plays will drop off in 2.0. That value is just not there. At level 40 I did 3 pay no plays this year, And got around 21 build. In 2.0 it would have been around 10ish build. 2/3rds as much after level 45.

That slow down just seems so drastic. Getting a level a year playing 12 games with gobbies seems like it would be fine, like it is now. Taking 3 years to get a level feels pretty lame honestly.

I’m not claiming anyone will hit 28, just stating that was the maximum gain. In reality, it would not have been possible at any point over the last 8 years as there were multiple weekends without events. It’s also a limitation that’s only impacting people of level 46+, so the audience is fairly limited, though in theory it will grow.

3.6 is probably an accurate number for someone who is not working to increase faster than that. If you are willing to put effort/money/time into it, you’ll go up faster, just like you would now.

 

[Tantarus]

3.6 is probably an accurate number for someone who is not working to increase faster than that. If you are willing to put effort/money/time into it, you’ll go up faster, just like you would now.

3.6 for playing 2 chapters and blanking one for a year seems a bit small to me. 3 years for a level...

 

[tieran]

3.6 for playing 2 chapters and blanking one for a year seems a bit small to me. 3 years for a level...

If it were a limit that weren’t self-imposed, I’d be more concerned about it, but nothing about the rules is stopping that same person from getting a level every year.

 

[Muir]

Disagree. I think this is on all plot and how they handle the level gap. I have played at events where I was 20th and everyone else was 1-3rd when Oregon first became a chapter. And plot made it work. Seattle plot makes it work with an apl of 12, when we are a group of 35-45s.

I think it is a sign of health if alot of players end up higher level because that shows you have player retention. The game has a lot of turn over (at least on our coast). Look how few people are over level 40 in chapters that have been around for 20+ years.

I think it's just the opposite. I've been doing this for 15 ears now, and a number of the other people I play with have as well, and are rocking characters in the 20's and 30's because characters eventually hit the end of their stories and get retired or moved to alt status and a new one brought forward to be the main.

The existence of many surviving 20+ year old characters above level 40 means that we are not successfully providing any threat of permanent death, nor any motivation to try something new.

Character turnover need to be a thing. High level characters inevitably eat the lion's share of plot's attention because you have to scale around them, and there should be new faces in those roles every few years to keep the story fresh.

 

[Tantarus]

If it were a limit that weren’t self-imposed, I’d be more concerned about it, but nothing about the rules is stopping that same person from getting a level every year.

Spending 100s of bucks a year for pay no plays to get a level a year is a pretty weak counter argument, honestly.