High level ennui.

M

most_precious_blood

Newbie
It seems a bit ridiculous, the gradual tapering of experience.

The only way to make xp in NERO is to attend an event, or do something OOG for Gobbies and Draggies.

At 10th level, I couldn't imagine what it would be like playing a *muffled speech*th level, and now, I can only imagine what some of the people like Dan (Shikar) or Steve Herdman (Laros) are going through at *muffled speech*th level.

There are no High-level skills, there is nothing new for me to experience (Having been many races and classes), and I almost feel like I am being punished for being a loyal NERO customer these almost 10 years. I'm sure for people who have played longer it is even worse.

I am too poor to chapter hop, and to even come to a seattle event is unbelievably expensive and difficult for me. (since coming here from California is farther to travel than many people do to chapter hop)

Traditionally, money makes high level characters... Those who can afford to chapter hop, donate, and generally spend spend spend in the name of NERO end up advancing faster, or at the very least, do not feel the slowdown as sharply as I.

All I have to donate, I am or have; and yet, I am advancing so slowly, I am feeling coerced into not playing this character anymore.

My event fees yield less return and more danger, increasing the likelihood I will die at an event.

I wonder often if this was the intent, or if people have just simply overlooked alternate means of advancement. (since 1989, or at least 1998)

I am good at this game, I always have been... fighting is definitely one of my strong suits.

So is RP, and yes, RP is available to me, but that is rarely a plot based thing... I am a huge fan of inter-player conflict... all of the plot I require is deeply personal, so it's not the kind of thing I can share with others.

I like playing it very much... and yet it feels like I am being punished for advancing quickly, doing so much, and being good at it.

Many California players feel like we should all just throw in the towel for the time being, and one of us did. (Finally) I will be following suit soon, and if things stay the way they are regarding 20+ level characters, I can't say that NERO (irregardless of how good the plot is <Which is to say, top notch>) will continue to recieve my business.

I have precious little money to spend, and as a good consumer (and a disabled person), I like to make sure it is well spent. So help me eliminate my thrifty consumer paranoia, and assure me NERO is still a good investment of both my time and money through your participation in this discussion.

In the end, my questions are these:

Do NERO, the owners, the plot team, or even players have a plan of action for dealing with high level PC ennui?

Will we see anything like high-level skills in the next decade, or any special treats for the biggest fish in the pond?

Does anyone think that I'm dead wrong to feel the way I do? Dead right?

Should I have posted, or should I re-post this somewhere else? :)

Does anyone on this board have anything to share regarding this subject... or to add?

I would love it if this were just a game, but it isn't a game, it is a business... based on a game.

Don't mistake my intention... I did not post this to flame or belittle any individual or group within the Alliance. It is my sincere hope that this discussion will ultimately reach the appropriate people (If it hasn't already) and will affect change for how NERO deals with level 20+ PCs.

In service,
-Gideon Elspeth
 
first off, I do agree that I wish there was more High level/ranked stuff. It would be nice to have something you could do with 20+ levels of a craft skill (for example) or have abilitys that crossed over formals and high levels of something else (Like having x levels of earth formals and 30 levels of potion making allowed someone to make non potionable spells into potions)

However the problem I see is that so many people have cheesed every high level ability before so it gets wiped out. Like the example with casters putting themselves into golums. Some GMs have a problem with this balance wise (I dont, but then I know exactly how I would handle it) so the ability will get nerfed.

and with pure or mostly pure fighters, its even worse. There is no advantage to high fighter skills outside of damage and tatics.

The problem comes down to, making the world good for the high and low, and making it so it go all to pot when the high arnt around but the plot is set for them.

Now, I do have a few small ideas, but for the most part, I cant really do anything to the rules themselves other than suggest that if a lot of people have these problems, write a number of proposals and see what can be done.

Part of the problem is also the build in ep/build charts. I mean I can arrange for high level mod settings and gamedays, but how many mods does it take to go up a level? (many many many).

Now, if your looking for non costly ways to get gobby, I know more than a few, tho I havent talked to shane yet, these are ideas I have been having that high levels may be able to do. (BTW with the new dragon stamp rules, if you get dragon stamps you can use them chapter wise, so if some of these suggestions are applyed at a national level, they get dragon stamps and not gobbys)
1) Submit plots and plot ideas (always worth points)
2) Help teach NPC some of the skills they sometimes lack. (aka leading a figher practice, teaching group tatics, ect)
3)writting IG works that can/will be refrenced. Example, I personly could use about 10-15 storys in the IG nero bent that sound good, arnt to long, and fit a general guideline I have in my head.)
4) Writeing IG works that can be given as props IG. I would love to have a pile of written stuff I could print out and give to players that was all RP stuff. Like an IG autopsy of X races, or general writing on the IG nature of this kind of magic or that. (example, when the players get the treasure, they also get a book/booklet titled celestial magic and the moon. It is a personal writting of something that contans lots of details, all from a RP point of view.)

5) well crafted NPC and npc group backround.

I could go on, but work calls soon soo.

Does any of this answer/help with your worrys/needs?
 
Well having been doing this for 10+ years as well... I understand the difficulty and problem as well.

On one hand- in the last year my PC has come to a absolutely slow stop regarding skills. Rather than learn to do something of limited or different effect, I can buy yet another level of alchemy or another spell.

On the other hand- the are some logistical problems running a high player level through a low or medium range average game setting.

There used to be a point in time when having 5, 10, 15 and 20 levels of various skills (alchemy, armorsmithing, craftsman) qualified you as a master/etc. There were also limited bonuses from having specialities like being able to make rare items/effects. Some of these were indeed pretty cool and some had flagrant holes for abuse. There was also a wider range of fighting abilities and some more roleplaying based skills (truth, charm, question, etc).

Overall-

From a money perspective for value- I would rather throw blankets I earn as Balryn to another character or even have the ability to use them to justify things a more developed character has such as an estate, hirelings, ships, etc. Spending $50-$100 to gain 1-2 build, which isn't enough to buy a single level of alchemy... doesn't change the character in almost anyway. The "growth plateau" has been hit. Even if I received 4-5 build for an event, all I would do is get another level of alchemy on top of 20+ other skills. The "change" would be non-existent.

I guess this is somewhat detailed by the fact that at one point in time Balryn had something like 40 build free. There wasn't really a need to spend any of it simply because it didn't actually add much to the character or what he could already do.

One of the problems that I've seen in pretty much every chapter is having an experience plot crew that is used to high level characters in their game. Most plot crews start out from low, move to medium, then get a few high level transfers that completely changes the fundamentals of the storylines they are used to running. There seems to be about a season or so lag time between staff learning to deal with that type of change. In essence though the rules have been toned down because the system has been developed from a lower level idea without troubleshooting it from a high end perspective.

Rather than a rules breakdown though, what is really happening is a plot breakdown. Just like in any game, a very exeperienced game master (aka PLOT/Staff) is okay with curves and twists... and all those special abilities found in 20+ expansion books. But because it's a LARP, new plot/staff tends to react poorly when confronted with a "here and now" decision and they don't have the experience to realize the ramifications further down the line.

Some of the more advanced rules that have been removed should actually be labelled "Allow this only if your plot team is ready to deal with it". Likewise, some of the skills with more RP flavored effects or game ramifications should be "experienced players only".

Now this isn't to bash new players/staff in any way, but if you look at most of the rules in the book you can obviously see that many of them are designed with a "newbie" idealogy. Yet as an example, we specifically have "ritual" marshals and players who have an entirely extra set of rules they can deal with that many players/staff don't have a clue about. In some aspects, it would be nice to have some extra specialized rules for different flavors of character. Yet the minute you bring combat into it you must calculate out that there is little way to seperate higher level rules for fighters without disabling them in comparison to the other classes with higher level special packages.

Now from a dollar perspective, I play the game to play the game. I like my character... but honestly 90% of my game is the interaction between players and myself. This of course doesn't hold true for other players, but it does create a wierd power syndrome where my character doesn't stay ahead power wise IG as he sees people he's known for just twelve months crest through 5-10+ levels. In that same year, I went up one. So from a IG perspective, he is left wondering why he simply can't learn anything (darned finals cramming apparently burned out his learning ability!).

It is also a reason why higher level characters (usually 20th+ level) character "hop" using race change and spirit forge rituals. I've seen a few people have one character that has been every PC race in the book (and some races that are not PC races too).

I would love to see some rules passed through for higher and more experienced staff and players. The staff that had some of the original higher level abilities years ago didn't complain nearly as much as the chapters with only a season or two under thier belts.

Ultimately, the rules have to be changed from the owner level and that is always a tough battle for any change (whether good or bad)

As far as donating... I would donate all the time if there wasn't a wierd leveling conversion on my dollars. If I spend 50 hours writing materials it should have a reasonable impact on my game... yet it wouldn't (at least for Balryn). If I spend 50 hours working on materials and spend those point on Ollaria I would more of a return. Plus the effort to $$ is way off for people with a career, since an hour of my time is worth a good amount. The donation system has always been a little weak when it comes to seriously donating anyhow... between myself (and my brother Daryl) we've probably thrown around 10k to 15k at NERO. I know we've both thrown $500 and more dollar donations at chapters before. That's a sizable amount of cash to think about of the 10+ years we've both been playing and that I've known some other members who have probably done similiar amounts.

Well spent? I had fun with friends. Whether or not it competes with other things I could spend that much money on over the years depends on a vast list of things.

~Barry

 
Sometimes I really hate the HQ boards. I was away for the weekend (playing Nero) and I come back to see what started as an interesting post and by page two it was just a name calling flame war. I would not blame you folks for never reading them again, but I thought I had some interesting comments for Gideon so I am posting here as well.
********************************************************
For the record, if any one wants to understand the perspective I am coming from with my comments: I have been playing this game since I was old enough to not be a page, which means that I have been playing the game for about 14 years. I have worked several characters up to ?high level? by anyone?s definition and I have killed most of them off. My primary is currently 20th level.

Gideon_Elspeth said:
It seems a bit ridiculous, the gradual tapering of experience.

The only way to make xp in NERO is to attend an event, or do something OOG for Gobbies and Draggies.

At 10th level, I couldn't imagine what it would be like playing a *muffled speech*th level, and now, I can only imagine what some of the people like Dan (Shikar al Basteua) or Steve Herdman (Laros Sonus) are going through at *muffled speech*th level.
Click to expand...

Correct me if I am wrong, but what I am hearing here is ?I?m not having fun any more because I don?t get build fast like a sub 10th level character?

I agree that getting build and going up and levels can be very enjoyable but it is hardly the only way to enjoy the game. In fact, I feel that this enjoyment is really only applicable to newbies. Once you have done it a few times it loses it?s luster. No matter how fast I get build, high level or low, it is just not what makes me enjoy the game.

Now several people have already stated things like ?Its about the plot and the story, not the build and the stats.? I tend to agree with them, but only to a point. Once you have been playing the game for a LONG time even this can start to loose it?s luster. I have played many campains and rarely do I see a plot or a setting which I have never seen before. I?ve played the frontier town campain, the run for you life Ravenloft campains, the big city campains, the political intrigue campains, etc. I?ve played the collect all of the stones to banish the big bad plot, the quest for the artifact plot, the Fey come and toy with you plot, the it was all a dream plot, the civil war plot, tournement plot, the elements are at war and we are stuck in the middle plot, etc.

Once you have seen all of these things five or six times it starts to get old. When I was young my favorite authour was David Eddings. His first 5 books were an epic adventure and I thought it was the best thing since sliced bread. Books 6-10 was the same plot rehashed with the same characters but on a different continent. Books 11-13 was the same plot but set in a different universe with different characters. Books 14-16 was the same plot but the setting and characters from books 11-13. You ge the point. By book 16 I was sick of it. The same thing can and often does happen in Nero. Exceptional plot teams can breath fresh life into the game, but they are the exception not the rule.

So you may ask ?Why do you still enjoy the game??

The answer is simple. For me Nero is a social club where I get to spend lots of time with old friends and meet lots of new friends. Everything else is just the extras. When I was young I was labled a geek/dork. Spending 6 years in martial arts just made them not say it to my face. I was ?the scarry geek? I started playing Nero in High School and quickly became incredably addicited to it. Why? Because it was the fist place I had found where all of the stigmas of society were left behind, nobody cared that I was a geek, and everyone was willing to at least attempt to be my friend. For the first time in my life I had lots of friends and I loved it. When I got into collage I stoped playing Nero for a few years. Why? Because my collage was a open liberal minded atmosphere where it was easy to make friends and most people did not prejudge you. I felt no need to drive several hours to do the same thing. This was only realized in retrospect. At the time I just lost interest. After collage I got a dose of ?Real life.? Got a good job, got married, bought a house etc? but nowhere in my life was there a setting that alowed for close friendship bonds to form. It just does not happen by the office water cooler. I made the concious effort to go back to Nero because of the social aspect. I have been making friends ever since and am once again addicted.

Gideon ? you may need to take a break, we all do at some point. But if you do, and years from now you find your self stuck in the nine-to-five trap with friends drifting away etc., remember my words. Nero adds much enjoyment to my life and it has nothing to do with skills or stats.

Gideon_Elspeth said:
There are no High-level skills, there is nothing new for me to experience (Having been many races and classes), and I almost feel like I am being punished for being a loyal NERO customer these almost 10 years. I'm sure for people who have played longer it is even worse.
Click to expand...

I read this as ?If I can?t get build fast at least give me new things to spend my build on because I?m board with all of the skills in the book. Been there done that.?

Again I hear you and agree in part and but disagree in part. IMHO this used to be worse. Back in the day my primary was a fighter, the only things that there were to spend build on were profs, and parry/slays (they were the same skill then). In many ways Nero International is still this way. Now they have profs, and parry/slays and blade fury (evicerate). On that system fighters bought profs, and then more profs. Talk about boring. When I came back from my break after collage I returned to my original home chapter, the original NeroMass, the Ravenholt campain, currently an International chapter. The PCs were all uber high level and it was super broken. They would actually sit around talking about the ?20-magic-fighter? problem. Because fighters had so little to buy with their build, and because it campain was had a very high APL, they had many (10-20) fighters running around swinging ?20-magic? This broke scaling in so many ways. It was nearly impossible to run game that was fun for new players.

I think the Alliance rules are much better. Disarms, stuns, shatters, ripostes all make it so that a pure fighter can buy fun things up untill about 23rd level and still only be calling 10s. IMHO this is the proper answer. Don?t add supper powers with ultra high level folks? add lots of other cool stuff to buy along the way.

So now you may ask ?why have we not done something similar for casters?? A 10th level scholar has a 4-column. After that its just adding more columns ad infinitum. I suppose you can do formal, and most get at least a few levels, but our formal system is fairly broken and most players do not get much enjoyment from their formal levels. So why did we not add new spells, aditional schools of magic, 10 level spells (and 11th and 13th?) etc. etc. etc.

The answer is GAME COMPLEXITY.

Every new spell or game effect is one more thing a new player must learn before they are really playing the game with the rest of us. It already takes the average player 3-6 events before they know most of the rules and most players never learn all of them. Can you imagine how bad it would be if we had a few more efect groups? Disarms, stuns, shatters etc were all pre-existing effects that were being delivered in a new way, but still with a pre-existing delivery meathod (weapon blow). Why do you think we say ?prepare to die!? for all of them? Because its simple.

I think your local plot team and the Alliance rules commite and the owners all want to add cool new stuff. But it rarely happens because we want the game to be playable fo rthe guy who just shows up and starts playing. If you have Ideas or sujestions that satisfy both of these desires I think you would find many people receptive to the ideas.

Gideon_Elspeth said:
I am too poor to chapter hop, and to even come to a seattle event is unbelievably expensive and difficult for me. (since coming here from California is farther to travel than many people do to chapter hop)

Traditionally, money makes high level characters... Those who can afford to chapter hop, donate, and generally spend spend spend in the name of NERO end up advancing faster, or at the very least, do not feel the slowdown as sharply as I.

All I have to donate, I am or have; and yet, I am advancing so slowly, I am feeling coerced into not playing this character anymore.
Click to expand...

In a word: ********.

I understand that not everyone has lots of cash, but lots of cash is not required to get gobbies. When I am feeling poor, and I want gobbies I do the following:

1. Go to Wal-Mart and buy two cheep *** white twin size flat sheets. This costs $5.50

2. Go to the hardware store and buy bird seed out of the hopper bin. I but 10 pounds at $0.35 a pound for a total of $3.50

3. Go to staples and buy a bag of rubber bands. 500 for $0.99.

I then spend a few nights watching TV making packets. The supplies listed make about 500-700 packets. This ushually gets me 200-300 gobbies.

Total out of pocket expense: $10

If you cannot find a way to get gobbies on the cheep you are just not thinking hard enough. If you can afford to PC at all you can afford to get gobbies.

Gideon_Elspeth said:
My event fees yield less return and more danger, increasing the likelihood I will die at an event.

I wonder often if this was the intent, or if people have just simply overlooked alternate means of advancement. (since 1989, or at least 1998)

I am good at this game, I always have been... fighting is definitely one of my strong suits.

So is RP, and yes, RP is available to me, but that is rarely a plot based thing... I am a huge fan of inter-player conflict... all of the plot I require is deeply personal, so it's not the kind of thing I can share with others.

I like playing NERO very much... and yet it feels like I am being punished for advancing quickly, doing so much, and being good at it.
Many California players feel like we should all just throw in the towel for the time being, and one of us did. (Finally) I will be following suit soon, and if things stay the way they are regarding 20+ level characters, I can't say that NERO (irregardless of how good the plot is <Which is to say, top notch>) will continue to recieve my business.

I have precious little money to spend, and as a good consumer (and a disabled person), I like to make sure it is well spent. So help me eliminate my thrifty consumer paranoia, and assure me NERO is still a good investment of both my time and money through your participation in this discussion.

In the end, my questions are these:

Do NERO, the owners, the plot team, or even players have a plan of action for dealing with high level PC ennui?

Will we see anything like high-level skills in the next decade, or any special treats for the biggest fish in the pond?

Does anyone think that I'm dead wrong to feel the way I do? Dead right?

Should I have posted, or should I re-post this somewhere else?

Does anyone on this board have anything to share regarding this subject... or to add?

I would love it if this were just a game, but it isn't a game, it is a business... based on a game.

Don't mistake my intention... I did not post this to flame or belittle any individual or group within the Alliance. It is my sincere hope that this discussion will ultimately reach the appropriate people (If it hasn't already) and will affect change for how NERO deals with level 20+ PCs.

In service,
-Gideon Elspeth
Click to expand...

Gideon, I hope that my comments have helped you. If you are not having fun anymore then take a break, but don?t hesitate to come back if you miss it. If you have sujestions for rule changes or new skills that will address your issues I encourage you to volcalize them, but understand that this is not the only issue with the game mechanics. Every change has other impacts. It is a constan balancing act.

-Devon
 
(not posting on the HQ boards for the reasons Talon lists quite well)

Something to keep in mind is that it's not a *bad* thing to play NERO for the enjoyment of character progression. Some people are making posts here and there that it's "bad" to want to build your character, or at least not a "good reason" for playing NERO. That's crap. The game sucks a large percentage of newbies in for their first year because building your character up is a lot of fun. But after the sugar rush of the first couple of years, all of a sudden you hit a wall in building your character up.

There's a number of reasons people play NERO. People play because they love the RP. People play because they love the combat. People play because they love getting juicy items. People play because they love building up their characters. Most of us lean towards one or more of those, but it really is a big motivation for a lot of people to want to build their characters up. Saying "Well, once you hit level X, you should suddenly stop enjoying that part of the game and switch completely to enjoying RP" is ridiculous.

If one wanted to continue to make NERO enjoyable for this facet after the current "build plateau", there's 2 areas to look at. First, gaining build: is the current ramping system really the best answer? Second, creating goals: what can we add that would make people continue to enjoy "build character" goals?

Yes, one *can* switch to a different goal after they hit Level X. But why should they *have* to?

-Bryan
 
Talon said:
So why did we not add new spells, aditional schools of magic, 10 level spells (and 11th and 13th?) etc. etc. etc.

The answer is GAME COMPLEXITY.

Every new spell or game effect is one more thing a new player must learn before they are really playing the game with the rest of us. It already takes the average player 3-6 events before they know most of the rules and most players never learn all of them. Can you imagine how bad it would be if we had a few more efect groups?
Click to expand...

I wanted to address this point that Devon brought up. IMHO it has been clearly and dramatically shown that this is *not* the case in a number of other LARPs. Adding new spells, skills, etc. doesn't require that the new player learn ANYTHING so long as you ensure that everything a new player sees is consistent.

For example, let's say we added a new "Summon Polare Elemental" ritual scroll to the database. This doesn't require that new players learn diddly squat, yet we've found something else for higher levels to go after.

Similarly, say that Phil's idea over on the HQ boards gets implemented -- there's a cross-chapter plot that can only be sought after by people with 30+ levels of Smithing. Again, there is *no* increase of complexity on new players.

Finally, let's say we want to add something new for fighters. Say we add a skill that lets them swing 10 "Disarm Strikes" in a row. You can make this skill as complex as you like, so long as everything that can affect other players is consistent with the existing rules. If the fighter has to hop on one foot and wear bright blue pants to make the Disarm Strikes work, it doesn't matter at all for new players. Their game is not affected at all so long as they know how "disarm" works and how weapon strikes work.

Even if you leave aside things like the above, there's plenty of "non-combat" area for NERO to explore. Give Fighters a skill so they can teach combat skills to multiple people at once if they have at least 5 levels of the skill they're teaching. Give Scholars a skill so they can meditate for 5 minutes on a battle magic scroll and put that scroll into a spell slot so they can cast it from memory that day. Let Rogues buy a high-level skill that gives them suicide ability or "escape mundane bonds" so they can escape interrogations. These things are all useful, but far from game-breaking, and all of them would give high-level players something special to shoot for -- "Yep, young learner, when you get to be my rank someday you too can wriggle out of the tightest ropes WITHOUT an activatable Release!".

The issue I've seen in the past is that, quite frankly, the rules committee is too conservative to consider rules like this. I can hear it now -- "There's already enough trouble getting the Addendum to people, can you imagine how hard it will be to get the High-Level Skills Packet to people?"

But then again I'm a fan of "secret rules" so long as they follow the core rules that everyone knows. As long as everything works with the current rules out there -- don't introduce a new effect, a new delivery, etc. -- go ahead and make a rules packet that only those above 20th level have access to. Or specific races. Or specific classes. Etc. etc. etc...

-Bryan
 
Bryan,

I think we were both saying the same thing when it came to new skills...

Everyone already knows what the Disarm effect is... a new way for players to deliver it is fairly simple and strait forward. But brand new effects, new spells, new effect groups, new schools of magic etc. would turn the mind of the average newbie to jello.

I was offering this as advice about how to propose new things to plot and/or rules commities. Don't propose new effects, especially if they duplicate other effects. Why do we need a "Slow Spell" that makes the target not able to run when there are already game effects that do this? Better to introduce new/more effective/cooler ways to deliver pre-existing effects.

-Devon
 
Exhibit A: You're wrong.

Talon, I don't think you read my post very well, even though you quoted almost all of it.

I refuse to post again on the HQ board, it made me sick, what I saw.

As soon as I posted there, several people immediately took the stance that the problem was mine alone, while hedging their bets with "But I understand where you're coming from..."

Few, if any even bothered to address the actual questions I had posted, and many people who respond seem to think THAT BY TYPING IN ALL CAPS THEIR ARGUMENT GAINS CREDIBILITY. ;)

Mostly, what the responses were were attacks. Either on myself, or on what I do with my free time (Most of which are incorrect assumptions.) Or worse, on individuals (It's a flame war in a couple of places.)

I would really like it if people actually tried to answer the questions I had asked, or like Bryan and Phil, had something helpful to contribute in the form of fleshed-out suggestions. (Which was one of the questions, so there.)

I find it amusing that the most overlooked part of my post is this:
"All I have to donate, I am or have... "

As someone has pointed out, some of those posts are directed at everyone, simply to list ways to gain Gobbies, not to imply I have not tried everything.
By some, I of course mean one or two.

The rest of them seemed directed at me, in spite of trying very hard to avoid that by posting the above quoted statement in the first place.

People have made the incorrect assumption I am complaining. I am not.

I am trying to make the NERO alliance a little more realistic, which it is not. I know this is a fantasy game, but the point at which we sacrifice this much realism for play balance is one we haven't reached yet, in my opinion.

Several people who do not have high-level characters posted on the thread, and while they are welcome to their opinion, I don't think they understand. Judging by their posts, most people misunderstood what I wanted, including "fearless leader".

I started off not wanting to reply on the HQ board because people had yet to suggest anything I hadn't already done... I ended up sorry I had ever posted this thread there in the first place, and writing off the HQ site (not just boards) entirely.

As I said on HQ, "against my better judgement" and, yet, many people seem to think I didn't realize I could make packets or write plot? Thanks for the wonderful vote of confidence in my intelligence, and may you live in interesting times.

For those that offered sincere suggestions to me, with no malign intent, I thank you, and apologize for what has grown beyond my control.

For those of you who felt that swearing was necessary, or that posted with malice of forethought, I say again... Interesting times.

In Service,
-Gideon
 
Dude, I posted here in an attempt to avoid all of the a-holes that tend to populate the HQ boards... and all you can do is flame me and complain about the fact that people flamed you on the HQ boards? I thought that you actually wanted to disscuss things. Too bad... was an interesting topic. The fact that I am the only one who used all caps does is not lost on me, and yes I know that living in interesting times is a curse not a blessing. I'm out of here.

-Devon
 
Being someone who's first event will be this june, i don't see what all the fuss is about. You have ultra powerful characters. Why can't you gain skills very fast? Because your ultra powerful characters. Same as any and every rpg or larp out there.At your stage of the game your characters have learned pretty much all their gonna learn. Any of you that have played any role playing game know what i mean. There comes a time when your mage, gliding thru the castle on his magic carpet, picking his teeth with a wand of wonder, casting wishes and otto's irresistable dance just to stave off boredom. I wish there was some level specific magic items or spells, or quests, or anything like that for high level pc"s. Whatever happened to expansion packs?. But to tell ya the truth, in a year people would be right back here bored(or worse yet, staying up late nights figuring out how to manipulate new rules) with the system. If it was me, and i'm not recommending it for anyone, and i'm sure my view would change once i put in the ten years, i'd probly turn him into an npc that i could play when i wanted to. That way he (lives forever) and ya don't get stuck playing someone that never advances cuzz he/she is already pretty much **** of the walk.Switching characters is just a red cape, blue tights, and a phone booth away. Geez, ya didn't hear superman writing plot for a cure for cryptonite. There, now that i've turned everyones blades toward my throat, i return you to your regularly scheduled program.
 
Ronin said:
Being someone who's first event will be this june, i don't see what all the fuss is about. You have ultra powerful characters. Why can't you gain skills very fast? Because your ultra powerful characters. Same as any and every rpg or larp out there.At your stage of the game your characters have learned pretty much all their gonna learn. Any of you that have played any role playing game know what i mean.
Click to expand...

But why? Ever-popular quote: If all your friends jump off a bridge, are you going to as well? Just because SOME other RPGs have a similar problem doesn't mean NERO has to. To say so is a limitation of vision, IMHO. Right now there's no point at all in getting 30 levels of Scroll crafting in NERO. Why not? Because of a limitation in vision. But there's nothing that says it HAS to be that way.

Besides, you'll find that there is a vast difference between a high-level character and an ultra-powerful one. My character is far more "powerful" than some others higher level than him, and there are those who are lower level than I who I would consider more "powerful" than I am in turn. A 1st level character with powerful friends can be an "ultra-powerful" character in their own right. But that's very different from hitting the top of the skill progression tree, which is the issue Gideon has brought up.

-Bryan
 
Talon said:
Bryan,

I think we were both saying the same thing when it came to new skills...

...

I was offering this as advice about how to propose new things to plot and/or rules commities.
Click to expand...

Ah, gotcha. Then you're right, we're on the same page here :)

-Bryan
 
Yeah, your right. But sooner or later everything crests. And it depends on what you consider powerful is. I'm not knocking anything anyone said, just putting in a fresh point of view. Unless Tolkien is resurrected or something eventually there comes a point in every game world where your character has progressed just about as far, and learned just about as many skills as their gonna learn. Heck, in real life it would take a person a lifetime to master something like martial arts or become a pardon the pun(nero)-surgeon. It takes people a lifetime to master swordsmanship. And none of them learn everything there is to know about it. Time in rpg's is kinda wierd and does not reflect character lvls well, but thats another story. Oh well, just a thought.
 
I believe that the problem Gid is bringing up is not actually a matter of whether or not highbies get to gain more power, its about the experience of playing NERO itself.

At low-level, who the character is, skill-wise, changes dynamically from one set of events to the next. Bob the lowbie goes from "guy with sword, board, and can read" to "guy who can disarm an army of goblins while keeping his mates from dying" within the span of a year and a half or less. Not only do his skills change dynamically, but the direction of the character is more mutable. Skill-wise, Bob can change pretty dynamically from who he was at the beginning of the year to the end of the year. Maybe he started out with the idea that he was going to be a fighter who wanted to become squired and the Man-At-Arms of Sir FancyPants. However, somewhere between two and four months down the line, he finds out that Sir FancyPants is big old jerk, in fact, most of the nobles are, and by the way, he's fallen for the hot Earth Guild flunkie, and so, in the interests of maintaining character growth, he picks up first aid, healing arts, and a new 1st level spell. Who the character is, as a character concept has changed, and the build-growth at low level supports such growth and change. The drive of playing the character shifts to "next event, I want to get the skill to cast 1st level earth spells so I can join the Earth Guild". Not an unattainable goal for a low-level fighter.

On the other hand, take the high-level character, who, admittedly, can slay legions of orcs with a sneeze. However, she now falls in love with the earth flunkie as well. Now, her goal for attending is "next event, I want to get 1/10th the skill necessary so that hopefully, in a year and a half's time, I'll be able to cast my first Cure Light Wounds!". The concept of a character is stagnated by the very nature of the game.

Now, of course, a portion of this can be attributed to the arguements in favor of Spirit Forge, but I'd rather not sidetrack the discussion onto that path.

The point Gid was making (I believe) is that, at high levels, the character card, as the supportive document to the character itself, is hampered from growing as dynamically as the character is capable of.

At low-level, what you play changes with every game you attend. The direction and focus of the character get shaped, molded, and reshaped with each new experience. At high level, the character becomes fairly static. The skills don't change, and the reputation you've earned in-game is always hard to shake off. In either situation, the only way to maintain that level of change is to spend money, either to support changing chapters and sometimes travelling to extreme distances so you can rediscover/reinvent the character you are currently playing (as an IG character transition), or to make donations locally.

Now, setting that all aside to the broader question of long-time player syndrome, Gid, I'd have to say that the answer is to step away from NERO for a good, long time. Some of the problems you mention will not be solved by any amount of new skills, plot shifts, or the like. As you said, eventually, you hit the point where you've played all the races, saved all the princes you care to, slaughtered all the villagers, and burninated the entire countryside so often that the nuances of plot start looking like Hollywood rehashes. ("Oh, this is Bambi meets the Godfather, with splash of The Net! I call it, Nature's Eyes.")

The solution, mes ami, is to move on to other things. Play darts, paintball, go camping, eat a good book, whatever. If you are no longer excited by the idea of creating challenges for the characters you play, then you're left with playing a different game entirely. Try something so unlike NERO that NERO becomes new again, or you simply aren't interested and enjoy the new thing. Competition-level Boggle, anyone?
 
Mmmm, competition boggle!

Actually, JP, I'd like to point out that there's one solution you didn't examine.

Say Joe is level 20. Joe the Prof Fighter falls in love with the Earth flunky and wants to shift to Scholar and start buying Earth spells.

Joe can halve his build and deaths and rebuild himself, but can play the *same character*. Now from 10th level he can still be far from a useless fellow, he can keep his IG reputation and such, and suddenly he's back to getting multiple build per event. On top of that he can buy new skills, be in a new class, etc.

Doesn't that kind of solve all the problems you list? Sure, you lose some of your character's power, but hey, all that build after 20th level is pretty much worthless as it is, right?

-Bryan
 
Polare Lissenstine said:
Mmmm, competition boggle!

Actually, JP, I'd like to point out that there's one solution you didn't examine.

Say Joe is level 20. Joe the Prof Fighter falls in love with the Earth flunky and wants to shift to Scholar and start buying Earth spells.

Joe can halve his build and deaths and rebuild himself, but can play the *same character*. Now from 10th level he can still be far from a useless fellow, he can keep his IG reputation and such, and suddenly he's back to getting multiple build per event. On top of that he can buy new skills, be in a new class, etc.

Doesn't that kind of solve all the problems you list? Sure, you lose some of your character's power, but hey, all that build after 20th level is pretty much worthless as it is, right?

-Bryan
Click to expand...

I'd like to note that some chapters may not allow this. Only some chapters have a character retirement policy and some that do would not allow you to rebuild the same character. I'm actually not sure what Seattle's policy on retiring a character to rebuild the same character is. Personally I wouldn't allow it.

I think that part of the problem that Gid is experiencing is due to the game environment. There are SO many high level characters in Seattle that in order to be of a decent power level you need to be 20th level. I personally would want to avoid playing anything under level 8 or so depending on my class due to the high ACE of monsters that are normally wandering. In a game with an APL of 15, a 20th level character is just above average. However, the system is really only designed to handle top level characters at around level 25, 35 for templar/scout/adept classes. This is evident by the build all but stopping after level 20. In truth I agree with everyone that is saying that high level characters are about the RP more than the Skills. In the beginning a lowbie gets a new skill every game, possibly more than one. This tapers down over time and your goals should become something in game. While you can be looking for that 12th prof it really shouldn't be what drives you to a game. Giving you more power will only separate out the highbies from the lowbies even more.
Think of what goals you could set for yourself. Perhaps you could build a keep (it used to cost 250 gold), or become a knight, or try to start a group of knights of your own. I tend to adopt lowbies and try to keep them alive. It keeps me very busy over the course of an event. It's tough to figure out what you want to do now that you've become the hero you've dreamed of becoming but the duty becomes set upon you to design your own goals. Plot should work with you on this as well.

As an aside, a decent way to avoid this problem for a period of time is to play a scout, templar or adept. These classes tend to cap on build skills they desire at a higher level. While it's still slow to get them you're to buy list won't be empty for quite some time.

Also if you want more power the place to find it is in-game. Items reproduce build skills. High level people are the ones making +3 swords, getting arcane armor, and are the fighters chain casting dragonbreaths from the rock they found. At some point to keep a larp balanced showing up alone can not be enough to advance your character, you need to take action to advance. Over the course of a weekend you could easily gain far more power in a single magic item than any 5th level character would get from his 5 build.

Marc
 
Polare Lissenstine said:
Joe can halve his build and deaths and rebuild himself, but can play the *same character*

Doesn't that kind of solve all the problems you list? Sure, you lose some of your character's power, but hey, all that build after 20th level is pretty much worthless as it is, right?
Click to expand...

Depends on what position you're discussing from. At the moment, there are no mechanics that allow this. The Seattle retirement policy that I wrote after my own experiences with life stupidity vs. NERO activity strictly forbids this exact activity, actually. When you retire a character, the character is gone.

Now, on the other hand, if your arguement is that such a policy should be permitted in order to help players combat high-level boredom of dynamics, then I'd suggest that there needs to be some manner of resolving it In-Game as well, in order to maintain a consistent universe.
 
Actually, Seattle's APL for the April event was 12.5 which was down 2 levels from the fairly regular 14.5.

Personally, I was playing a 7th level character at last event, and even with the apl dropping 2 levels I felt pretty useless until Sunday morning... and even then I *still* felt pretty useless.
 
On the other hand...

Alright, flip side to the argument.

At NERO, I have never been able to play with more than 11 levels. Period. Top that off with playing a human, and it gets even more fun. Yes, I said fun.

Imagine that.

With so many high-level characters in game, it's often thought that lower level characters would be useless, or unable to withstand the type of onslaught that say, Gregor or Solomon could take on with only a single sword and their boxer shorts.

But you know...if you never try, never make the attempt, you never get anywhere.

What would be wrong with absolutely retiring a character, if you're tired of playing him/her for lack of advancement? Retire the character, and start over from absolute scratch, no "bonuses" thrown in?

In other larps, I've done just that. I retired an 18th level character and built a 3rd level human fighter with a dagger and a buckler for exactly the reason listed above.

That character was the most fun I'd had since I starting playing the game. It certainly wasn't "new", but the challenges were greater.

Perhaps that's the question...where's the fun in the challenge? For some, the fun is the challenge. But what is it for others? Is it the challenge, the idea of level-advancement, the "power gaming" aspect of it all?

Back on topic, now...

My honest answer (guaranteed not to win any friends) is to suck it up and play the game. If you can't advance, do something else and give the low-level character you've been suppressing a chance to move up. Volunteer to NPC for an event or 2 or 3. Build a new character and play that one... But whatever you do, just play the game.

Spoone (yeah. I'm back)
 
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