How to fix Doom Blow, your thoughts?

Which change to Doom Blow would you prefer?

  • 1) Reduce cost to 4 build. Change to mirror eviscerate like before, dealing "500 body" from behind.

    Votes: 1 6.3%
  • 2) Reduce cost to 2-3 build, Leave as is.

    Votes: 1 6.3%
  • 3) Same build cost, adds your assassinate damage to doom carrier.

    Votes: 1 6.3%
  • 4) Same build cost, Change to "Weapon Doom".

    Votes: 8 50.0%
  • 5) Reduce build cost to 2, Does your assassinate damage with Body carrier.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 6) Reduce build cost to 4, Does Double your assassinate damage with Body carrier.

    Votes: 1 6.3%
  • 7) Same build cost. Make it a tri-burst, you get to swing Doom carrier for three strikes in 3 secs.

    Votes: 1 6.3%
  • 8) Other, Detailed below in post.

    Votes: 1 6.3%
  • 9) Leave it as currently is.

    Votes: 2 12.5%

  • Total voters
    16

Tantarus

Squire
So as given by my previous poll (found at https://alliancelarp.com/forum/threads/poll-lets-talk-about-doomblow.40789/ ) over 90% of people that voted think Doom Blow is underwhelming, 100% of rogues,scouts,adepts that replied found it underwhelming with many commenting They found it to be bad and at most would buy one. So This post is to try and figure out a way to fix it, in hopes of getting an owner to propose a change to make it more likely people will take the stealth "capstone".

So here are my ideas so far, please post your own ideas and I will add them to the poll as I can. Costs are for rogue, would be adjusted for other classes accordingly.

1) Reduce cost to 4 build. Change to mirror eviscerate as it did before, dealing "500 body" from behind. Rename Terminate.

2) Reduce cost to 2-3 build, Leave as is.

3) Same build cost, adds your assassinate damage to doom carrier.

4) Same build cost, Change to "Weapon Doom".

5) Reduce build cost to 2, Does your assassinate damage with Body carrier. Rename Terminate.

6) Reduce build cost to 4, Does Double your assassinate damage with Body carrier. Rename Terminate.

7) Same build cost. Make it a tri-burst function meaning you get to swing Doom carrier three strikes in a row within a three count.

8) Other, Detailed below in post.

9) Leave it as currently is.
 
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Tantarus

Squire
Personally I would see any of these as an upgrade, but I find myself leaning more toward option 1, because it is nice and clean. It also makes it less likely to be cloak, baned, resisted. Which I think should be a feature of a capstone ability.

Weapon Doom appeals to me, but it can be avoided is more ways. Also you cant combine it with Ragging blow at that point. Not to mention for 3 build it is only a slight upgrade to waylay, both are in curse group, both are effectively KOs.
 
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Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
Raging Strike doesn’t need to be more powerful than it is, and I genuinely feel like making it applicable to a new version of Doom Blow pushes us back in the direction of MIs being too important in Alliance.

I also don’t think duplicating Eviscerating Blow is going to fly with the owners, as it was designed specifically to not be Eviscerating Blow.

Weapon Doom would be blocked by Cloak/Bane/Resist Curse, compared to EB. I think that’s a pretty solid balance compared to Stealth’s defensive advantages.

Weapon Doom is a perfectly reasonable solution.
 
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Tantarus

Squire
Weapon Doom would be blocked by Cloak/Bane/Resist Curse, compared to EB. I think that’s a pretty solid balance compared to Stealth’s defensive advantages.
I think mettle closed this gap alot honestly.

Weapon Doom is a perfectly reasonable solution.
It might be, but as a rogue, do I really get 1 weapon doom for 5 build or 2 weapon paralysis for 4 build? They use the same defenses and are both KO effects. I am just not sure it is different enough.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
I think mettle closed this gap alot honestly.



It might be, but as a rogue, do I really get 1 weapon doom for 5 build or 2 weapon paralysis for 4 build? They use the same defenses and are both KO effects. I am just not sure it is different enough.
There’s a lot of ranged Rogues out there that would probably pick that Doom for 5.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
Don’t burn your skills against a shield, I guess?
 

Feldor

Scholar
Marshal
There are a couple areas "Doom Blow" is problematic. The first part is it is expensive for something that doesn't add damage. Another part of the problem with it be "Doom" is there are a number of things that are resistant to either doom or curse that are not resistant to damage - so at times when you use it with an assassinate, it actually allows the entire attack to be negated such that its often _worst_ to use a doom blow.

I'd like to suggest taking this a slightly different direction. How about instead of adding the "Doom" carrier, it allows you to add the "Massive" carrier? Given that its just add a carrier, I'd suggest that it then either also include some static damage (either a fixed value; or possibly the same/double the assassinate value).
 

Feldor

Scholar
Marshal
Hrm interesting idea, why massive over body? from behind massive doesnt really add much.
One, I like massive because it feels like the rogue perfectly lining up the back attack so well that most defenses don't work. I realize that thematic feel isn't important to some people, but I like it when the mechanics feel cohesive.

Two, for solo-work/PvP it means they have a surprise attack that isn't entirely negated by a 2nd level spell.

Three, just duplicating the fighter ability asks the question of why bother having them be separate abilities at all. Make it be like "Riposting Blow" if they are just going to do the same thing. Instead, this gives it a unique feel, and adds a chunk of something slightly special
.
 

MaxIrons

Squire
Oregon Staff
Marshal
Honestly, swapping Eviscerating Blow to be Massive and Terminating Blow to be Body would work well in my opinion, though costs would need to be heavily adjusted.
 

Gilwing

Baron
Alliance Logistics
Another part of the problem with it be "Doom" is there are a number of things that are resistant to either doom or curse that are not resistant to damage - so at times when you use it with an assassinate, it actually allows the entire attack to be negated such that its often _worst_ to use a doom blow.
I ran monster desk for the entire 1st 2.0 offical season. Nothing from what I seen/sent out was specifically resistant to Doom or Curse.
 
I meant to post this in the original thread a few days ago but work got in the way. I'm reproducing my thoughts here.

Frankly, the ability to kill small to mid-range targets doesn't seem to need any help using a Stealth-focused skill set, and against big targets Doom Blow carries the twin issues of being an obvious place to use defensive skills and also failing against armor. Doom Blow does not effectively address an area of need for Stealth characters in the way that Eviscerating Blow does for Martial ones.

Honestly, the more I've been thinking about it, the more I feel like the most fun aspect of playing with the Stealth skills is having a versatile toolkit that rewards playing patiently and taking smart risks, and enables that play with powerful defensive options if your risk turns out to have been not so smart after all. I don't want to overpower my target, I want to outwit them and have the exact right trick up my sleeve at the exact right time. I think a worthy Stealth capstone is a skill that allows the user to replicate any other single use Stealth skill.
 

Alkalin3

Administrator
Chief Technology Officer
South Michigan Staff
Marshal
I am not sure we should give PCs access to massive honestly.
This won't pass an owner vote anyhow. Massive is a super problematic carrier, and we should move away from using it.

Additionally, it breaks one of the design tenants of fighters, that they're good at defending against weapon stuff.
 
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Alkalin3

Administrator
Chief Technology Officer
South Michigan Staff
Marshal
I've personally thought a fair amount about this.
And shopped around some ideas. The easiest fix I believe is just turning it into weapon doom.

However, I think that steals a bit of thunder from earth all the same.
I'd like to see Doom Blow removed and go back to the drawing board.
I'd love to see something akin to a greater opportunistic attack where you get x amount of time to use your skills from the front.

The problem is, that I think 5 minutes is probably too long, and nothing really goes off a one minute counters besides First Aid and Bleeding out.

It'd give rogues another tool in the box and solve a real problem which is that if you roll up on a bad guy, and you don't finish them, they turn around and you're left with not much.

It kind of also leaves opportunistic attack in a weird spot.
It's also useless for Archers but, maybe you could get full backstab damage? Or allow access to some of the melee only powers during this time.
 

Alkalin3

Administrator
Chief Technology Officer
South Michigan Staff
Marshal
The flip side is that in hallway battles, or circumstances where Rogues can't get to backs. It lets them step in during fighter refits and do some reasonable damage for a very limited time.
 

Feldor

Scholar
Marshal
Workshopping some ideas:
  • Misdirection: If rogues are known for evasion, how about a capstone that works with dodge. Maybe a checkbox, maybe a per use skill. But when you use a dodge, you can call it as bane, and if it bounces back you can call dodge without expending a second dodge.
  • Evasion: works just like dodge, except it also avoids AoE effects. Include additional text of "at plot/marshal discretion may be used to bypass physical challenge checks" to embrace the "be all you can't be" in the same way "opportunistic attack" can.
  • Swashbuckle: For 10 minutes, you may treat your backstabs and back attacks as if they were weapon proficiencies and critical attacks.
  • Terminate: The pattern for rogue abilities seems to be that rogues do twice as much from behind as a fighter does from the front. So Terminate should deliver 1000 body from behind, or 500 body via archery/thrown.
  • Bladeflurry: For 10 seconds, you call evade to any weapon delivered attack, may use from behind skills from the front, and any weapon skill used gains the strike attribute.
If we move towards having the doom blow replacement being something that does not have a large static damage, we should consider decreasing the prerequisite for buying assassinate (but not improved assassinate) from /20 to /10. Rogues at the moment have the problem that against the big enemies that you want to damage down fast, they are falling significantly behind fighters in their ability to contribute.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
Here's an idea.

1) Making Riposting Blow Martial-only.
2) Ditch Opp A.
3) Ditch Doom Blow.
4) Create Cunning Attack, 30 XP requirement. Gives Stealth characters the ability to make any single Stealth attack they have available from the front without consuming the base attack.

If we agree that Rogues don't need another low/mid takeout attack, but we want to reward them for being versatile, this would allow them to have a versatile resource without crowding on other concepts.
 
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Tantarus

Squire
I'd love to see something akin to a greater opportunistic attack where you get x amount of time to use your skills from the front.
4) Create Cunning Attack, 30 XP requirement. Gives Stealth characters the ability to make any single Stealth attack they have available from the front without consuming the base attack.
I love this line of thought so much.

How about:

Cunning attack, 10 build, 90xp in stealth required. Static effect. Once a character with this ability lands a successful attack from behind, they may consider themselves behind a target for 5 mins.
 
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