How to fix Doom Blow, your thoughts?

Which change to Doom Blow would you prefer?

  • 1) Reduce cost to 4 build. Change to mirror eviscerate like before, dealing "500 body" from behind.

    Votes: 1 5.6%
  • 2) Reduce cost to 2-3 build, Leave as is.

    Votes: 1 5.6%
  • 3) Same build cost, adds your assassinate damage to doom carrier.

    Votes: 1 5.6%
  • 4) Same build cost, Change to "Weapon Doom".

    Votes: 9 50.0%
  • 5) Reduce build cost to 2, Does your assassinate damage with Body carrier.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 6) Reduce build cost to 4, Does Double your assassinate damage with Body carrier.

    Votes: 2 11.1%
  • 7) Same build cost. Make it a tri-burst, you get to swing Doom carrier for three strikes in 3 secs.

    Votes: 1 5.6%
  • 8) Other, Detailed below in post.

    Votes: 1 5.6%
  • 9) Leave it as currently is.

    Votes: 2 11.1%

  • Total voters
    18

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
Plz no timed effects.

Also, Rogues don’t need prolonged front fighting skills. That’s a Fighter thing. Rogues have powerful offensive and defensive abilities, and a weakness accordingly. One shot things are fine, but 5 minutes it’s excessive. Heck, 1 minute would be excessive.
 
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Tantarus

Knight
Personally as a rogue I would love more opp strike like effects, getting put into a mod, line battle, or a hallway fight is pretty not fun for us.

Or at the very least a non lack luster captstone.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
Every class has downsides. Fighters deal with limited defenses against non-weapon attacks, casters deal with having anemic bodies that fall over from a stiff breeze.

Why should Rogues have a compensation for everything, when nobody else does?
 

Tantarus

Knight
Spell parry, Mettle and racials fill most those gaps. I noticed alot of kyn fighters around these days.

Asking for a decent capstone is hardly wanting everything. when 90% of people agree it is underwhelming.
 

Darkcrescent

Knight
Chicago Staff
Marshal
Its bad enough Riposte only counts as Martial for skillups, but its great for Rogues. I wish I had more as its a cool skill. Rogues certainly have other flaws, its called standing in the back chatting with folks during a line fight.

Another fix for that is grab Archery, which in the night, isnt the best skill, especially in a loud close quarters unlit line fight.
 

Tantarus

Knight
Its bad enough Riposte only counts as Martial for skillups, but its great for Rogues. I wish I had more as its a cool skill. Rogues certainly have other flaws, its called standing in the back chatting with folks during a line fight.

Another fix for that is grab Archery, which in the night, isnt the best skill, especially in a loud close quarters unlit line fight.
Yes I have been arguing that Riposte is a rogue skill since playtesting. Rogues have 2.5x the abilities to trigger it, It lets us ignore position, so much more then it does for fighters

Perhaps the answer is to make a rogue version of the skill "Counter attack" with the same text, only it is a stealth skill and has 30 XP stealth requirement.

And yes, Archery is a decent fall back, but like you said terrible at night or loud fights, so bad to the point I gave it up.
 

Mori

Newbie
Alliance Logistics
Marshal
The idea that fighters have to always be obviously better to rogues, as judged by people who play fighters, is to going to make it pretty hard to come up with something that is both acceptable and compelling to people who do play rogues. If that is an actual design constraint, I don't really know how you get around it to have a cool capstone.
 

Mori

Newbie
Alliance Logistics
Marshal
This may also explain why Scout is so uncompelling: the thing that makes Spell Swords and Adepts cool is the abilities that people in one class might want from another. In order for Scout to be compelling, Fighters would need something big that we regret giving up by not buying Stealth skills.
 

jerrett

Newbie
What if they broke Riposte into two separate skills? One for martial and one for stealth (similar to the functions of evade/parry). This would allow the stealth-driven skill to count towards stealth skill thresholds (which may allow for further progression down the rogue skill line which riposte doesn't help with) unless it is felt that the presence of riposte under martial instead of stealth is actually a net benefit for rogues (to unlock more martial-based skills).
 

Tantarus

Knight
What if they broke Riposte into two separate skills? One for martial and one for stealth (similar to the functions of evade/parry). This would allow the stealth-driven skill to count towards stealth skill thresholds (which may allow for further progression down the rogue skill line which riposte doesn't help with) unless it is felt that the presence of riposte under martial instead of stealth is actually a net benefit for rogues (to unlock more martial-based skills).
I would love to see riposte made into a rogue skill or a version that is stealth points. I have 20 build of prereqs for stuff I dont want, that is bought using stealth preregs.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
What if they broke Riposte into two separate skills? One for martial and one for stealth (similar to the functions of evade/parry). This would allow the stealth-driven skill to count towards stealth skill thresholds (which may allow for further progression down the rogue skill line which riposte doesn't help with) unless it is felt that the presence of riposte under martial instead of stealth is actually a net benefit for rogues (to unlock more martial-based skills).
I proposed that ages ago, went nowhere, but maybe someone wants to try it again later down the road.
 

Feldor

Adept
Marshal
From a theorycraft POV that assumes some of rogue is being super survivable, I like that Riposte opens up the ability for rogues to grab a resolute and a mettle, to cover those rare times when dodge doesn't cover (or you are out of dodges). And to allow the use of a second recharge prowess. But I'm not playing a rogue, so I'll pretty solidly defer to those rogue players in how this feels out because I could see the frustration of being 20 points behind in unlocking more assassinate damage & defenses.
 

Ardos

Artisan
South Michigan Staff
There seems to be some VAST differences from the original ideas of monster cards if stuff is not taking a doom but is taking damage, and creating a matching from behind eviscerate is just strictly worse than regular eviscerate, while giving more damage falls back into the damage creep problem that 2.0 was supposed to help alleviate. How on earth are you planning to stat a monster card when 2 players can hit you for 2k damage in less than a second? Yes its a capstone and should be strong but both sides of the games design philosophy needs to be considered. A capstone that let you be more flexible with your rogue abilities is one thing and 1 minute is not enough to take the place of fighters in any sense. Another idea I had been considering was a way to have "non defendable" added to one of your damaging abilities (no idea the phrasing or call needed but something to tack on to your abilities to give the hit and run or sneak up styles of play more teeth. Right now pretty much everyone Ive talked to has commented that high end rogue is in a weird place, and the fact that this poll exists makes it clear that the solution isnt keep this the same.

Edit: another decent Idea that I had been considering was similar to the 3 swings poll suggestion, but rather giving them additional swings of their other abilities (for example 2 or 3 swings of that resisted paralysis). that would give rogues a niche of removing defenses and guaranteeing that their abilities did hit the mark on what they snuck up on
 

Tantarus

Knight
I could see the frustration of being 20 points behind in unlocking more assassinate damage & defenses.
I can attest it is, also it should really not be a feature of any skill to give points for another class imo.

a way to have "non defendable" added to one of your damaging abilities (no idea the phrasing or call needed but something to tack on to your abilities to give the hit and run or sneak up styles of play more teeth.
X Vengeance would be a good call. That said I dont want this because it means NPCs will have access to it. Which would get old fast for people.
 

Feldor

Adept
Marshal
I guess, we already have to have monsters be able to deal with that amount of damage, because eviscerate exists. Two fighters rolling up to a Big Bad (BB) can already deal out those 2k damage in a few seconds. Rolling rogue's /60 ability in to the same category isn't really a problem - it might be an opportunity.

Vengeance is never going to be a call on a player ability. Its weird and special and it gets problematic when its used except in the special circumstances it is supposed to be used in.

Honestly, this was why I was suggesting Massive earlier in this thread. It is at least a carrier (unlike vengeance), and seems to do some of the "unavoidable damage" thing that I feel like rogue wants.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
Massive should never be on a PC card. That’ll just result in more NPCs with Dodge/Phase instead of Parry.

Defense bloat is definitely a thing.
 

Feldor

Adept
Marshal
Honestly, a better /60 ability for rogue might be to go the united blow route -- death by a thousand very painful paper cuts. Instead of trying to give them a single swing that takes out an opponent, maybe given something like "The next 5 swings within a short time period do your assassinate damage. The first swing used to start this ability must be from behind. This ability ends after 5 swings or some other reasonable end condition (maybe 15 seconds; maybe user moves 10 feet; nothing that'd leave a person self-pinned on a field unwilling to move so they can get the last 2 swings off."
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
No timed effects, plz. Also, "lasts for X swings" isn't a mechanic I want to introduce, either.

Edit: I'd be fine with an ability like, "can swing for X as long as feet remain planted," but I don't think Rogues would benefit with that. That's a mechanic from Storm, so it has a precedent.
 
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