Legerdemain
- Thread starter IvanDrake
- Start date
markusdark
Knight
jpariury said:
Heh, I was waiting for that.
Nope. Just as I don't feel using a cane as a cane instead of a bludgeoning weapon. The trouble is that unlike vice grip pliers, a set of lockpicks can't be used to tighten a nut, help to grip a piece of metal, etc. They only have one purpose - to pick locks.
And now let's hear the "Clean your teeth" with the dental tools. I'm not going to waste anymore time on this as it just becomes a running argument. I just have never attended a LARP in California in the last 15 years that allowed the actual picking of locks due to the laws on lockpicks.
markusdark
Knight
Ondreij said:
Whaaa???? Okey, I don't know how this leap came to be but I am done talking about this.
Ezri
Knight
Why is this becoming an argument?
Cali laws prohibit somebody from using lockpicks that isn't a licensed locksmith. So they're being creative in representing an IG skill with alternative objects so their players can have fun and not have to worry about OOG stupid laws. It's the better safe than sorry thing.
I'm really confused as to what the issue is.
As an aside, I'd be really interested to see what you guys have come up with for this - maybe we could use some of them and add a little flavor to our campaign as well.
Cali laws prohibit somebody from using lockpicks that isn't a licensed locksmith. So they're being creative in representing an IG skill with alternative objects so their players can have fun and not have to worry about OOG stupid laws. It's the better safe than sorry thing.
I'm really confused as to what the issue is.
As an aside, I'd be really interested to see what you guys have come up with for this - maybe we could use some of them and add a little flavor to our campaign as well.
Actually, it is NOT against the law in CA to possess lock picks. Read the statute. There is a clear statement ... with felonious intent. Possession is not intent ... even in California. I even took the time to consult with two lawyer friends who practice in CA; their opinions agree that without being, or having been, in the immediate proximity of such place where there has been evidence of illegal entry, there is no nexus of intent and possession. Besides, dental tools as much resemble lock picks as a sharpening steel looks like a curling iron. So any way you look at it, not using legerdemain for picking locks just because a chapter is in CA seems like a pretty lame excuse IN MY OWN HUMBLE OPINION.
And it was not a ******** leap of logic...it was a reasonable inference based on previous deteriorations of even-tempered discussions that broke down with implications that go something like "you can't understand what happens here because you live there." I lived in California for twelve years, which is pretty long enough to understand what happens there even though I live here. In addition, I took the time to do some relevant research by consulting with subject matter experts.
And it was not a ******** leap of logic...it was a reasonable inference based on previous deteriorations of even-tempered discussions that broke down with implications that go something like "you can't understand what happens here because you live there." I lived in California for twelve years, which is pretty long enough to understand what happens there even though I live here. In addition, I took the time to do some relevant research by consulting with subject matter experts.
Gee-Perwin
Adept
Ondreij said:
Yeah, what ever happened to innocent until proven guilty? Don't let silly laws like this one control you.
jpariury
Duke
I tend to use mine to pull tags out of vials, but that may just be me.markusdark said:
Every state has a law similar to the one you cite. Californians, IME, are the only ones who make the odd leap to "it's illegal for me to own lockpicks in my state". Ownership is not illegal. Intent to use in a felony or misdemeanor is.
Where did you get that idea from? That is not a statement made in 466.Ezri said:
jpariury
Duke
I suspect this is an urban legend, only because I have yet to encounter one. I've checked for every state I've larped in (MA, NJ, PA, TX, CA, WA, OR, GA) and I've always seen the "illegal to possess <insert random list> with intent to bypass security devices without permission" clause.Ezri said:
There are lots of things I've seen as suggested ideas for replacing actual lockpicking. The buzzer hoop-on-a-bent-wire is kind of silly IMO. The most manageable, IMO, was a game that had levels of locks which required 10 seconds + 10 seconds per level of lock - 10 seconds per level of lockpicking (min 10 seconds). I generally feel that this turns the game more into a paper game than a larp, though.
Sym of Moria
Scholar
I dont use actual lockpicks.....I use dental tools and small peices of metal that I have bent...
Its not hard for "Alliance" Safe locks....(you might need to practice)
You dont need "LOCKPICKS" to pick a lock.... a skilled person and 2 paperclips can do the job...
Onitt H
PS- Also the Shatter rules changed didnt they?
If you Shatter a lock you dont shatter the box correct? Same logic as if I shatter your belt the pouch on it doesnt shatter........
Its not hard for "Alliance" Safe locks....(you might need to practice)
You dont need "LOCKPICKS" to pick a lock.... a skilled person and 2 paperclips can do the job...
Onitt H
PS- Also the Shatter rules changed didnt they?
If you Shatter a lock you dont shatter the box correct? Same logic as if I shatter your belt the pouch on it doesnt shatter........
<<< The most manageable, IMO, was a game that had levels of locks which required 10 seconds + 10 seconds per level of lock - 10 seconds per level of lockpicking (min 10 seconds). I generally feel that this turns the game more into a paper game than a larp, though. >>>
While this does take the "live action" out of it, I agree this is probably a better system. I think that the lockpicker should have to role-play that he is picking the lock during that time. It would make legerdemain a much more valuable skill. You could even have rogues spend extra BP on legerdemain to maybe lessen the time. For example, it takes a Level 1 locksmith 40 seconds to unlock a 3rd level lock (10 seconds + 10 seconds per level). But a Level 2 locksmith might be able to do it in 32 seconds (8 seconds + 8 seconds per level) and a Level 3 locksmith 24 seconds (6 seconds + 6 seconds per level).
If the skill was used this way, there'd probably be locks in every module which would make the need for rogues go waaay up.
--- Eric Stehle / Ivan Drake
While this does take the "live action" out of it, I agree this is probably a better system. I think that the lockpicker should have to role-play that he is picking the lock during that time. It would make legerdemain a much more valuable skill. You could even have rogues spend extra BP on legerdemain to maybe lessen the time. For example, it takes a Level 1 locksmith 40 seconds to unlock a 3rd level lock (10 seconds + 10 seconds per level). But a Level 2 locksmith might be able to do it in 32 seconds (8 seconds + 8 seconds per level) and a Level 3 locksmith 24 seconds (6 seconds + 6 seconds per level).
If the skill was used this way, there'd probably be locks in every module which would make the need for rogues go waaay up.
--- Eric Stehle / Ivan Drake
If it changed to a repeat buy skill the cost would need to go down.
Personally I think thats not a bad system. You could require that they have approved lockpicks (Ie, no paperclips) that are tagged in game like a weapon, and cost PP to blacksmith. And they have to RP opening the lock.
One of my big issues is that that current rules say, a pickable lock.
I can pick actual locks. Not the crap little luggage ones. But like master locks, and the one you use on your front door.
So theoretically, I could bring in locks that a bunch of people with the skill could not actually pick, because I can demonstrate their ability to be picked to a marshal.
Personally I think thats not a bad system. You could require that they have approved lockpicks (Ie, no paperclips) that are tagged in game like a weapon, and cost PP to blacksmith. And they have to RP opening the lock.
One of my big issues is that that current rules say, a pickable lock.
I can pick actual locks. Not the crap little luggage ones. But like master locks, and the one you use on your front door.
So theoretically, I could bring in locks that a bunch of people with the skill could not actually pick, because I can demonstrate their ability to be picked to a marshal.
Dreamingfurther
Baron
Well it does say that the locks have to be "easily" kickable.
In any case your point Sunnfire is a big reason I think the skill is a bit wonky because it feels like it requires a different OOG skill level than other skills.
This is exactly what I would LOVE to see happen and I also think it would really increase the need and usefulness of rogues. Also I would argue that it does not turn the game into a paper game because there are already quite a few skills like this, refitting armor, performing first aid, just to name a few.
In any case your point Sunnfire is a big reason I think the skill is a bit wonky because it feels like it requires a different OOG skill level than other skills.
IvanDrake said:
This is exactly what I would LOVE to see happen and I also think it would really increase the need and usefulness of rogues. Also I would argue that it does not turn the game into a paper game because there are already quite a few skills like this, refitting armor, performing first aid, just to name a few.
Dreamingfurther
Baron
jpariury said:
Agreed.
Perhaps you could allow locks to be Destroyed but not shattered, I always wished there was a little bit more distinction made between those two spells. (other than the Armor toasting) Like I wish Destroy took out a full strengthen fully and toasted something with only a half Strengthen.
obcidian_bandit
Count
That wouldn't change the problem, just make it cost an extra few silver to bypass the lock. Destroy is scrollable, and at 7th level, you only need 2 levels of Celestial to cast it.
Putting locks on the list of things smiths can officaly Strengthen would help. If it took 3 shatters or destroys then we might see a lot more lock picking over lock breaking.
Also as said before, building a lock into something large means that you can shatter it, you have to destroy it. So a Strengthened lock built into a door needs 3 destroys or one lockpicker. And unless the PCs remove and keep the door, nothing out of TP needs to applyed.
At this time locks can only be Strengthened on the whim of plot(never had plot say I couldnt, but you get the idea)
Also as said before, building a lock into something large means that you can shatter it, you have to destroy it. So a Strengthened lock built into a door needs 3 destroys or one lockpicker. And unless the PCs remove and keep the door, nothing out of TP needs to applyed.
At this time locks can only be Strengthened on the whim of plot(never had plot say I couldnt, but you get the idea)