Life Vs Death - Earth caster opinions

Which will you choose to memorize?

  • Life Exclusively

  • Death Exclusively

  • 50/50

  • Both, but mostly Life

  • Both, but mostly Death

  • EDIT: Change Over Time

  • EDIT2: I have no preference one way or the other.

Results are only viewable after voting.
Sita said:
"Why -would- Earth Casters take the Death spell over Life?"
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So I can kill someone quickly. I'm an Earth Templar. In my chapter I am not in game to heal people, people have accepted bringing me on a Lair/Mission/Quest, whatever you want to call it, means I'm there to get in the way of enemies. We have other characters who have life spells. I would take one for my Rebirth so I could get back up if there are no other Life spells for me. I might take more if the Earth Casters with Life spells won't be at event. But other then that I would probably take Death as it would help me do my job better.
 
Thorcanine said:
So I can kill someone quickly. I'm an Earth Templar. In my chapter I am not in game to heal people, people have accepted bringing me on a Lair/Mission/Quest, whatever you want to call it, means I'm there to get in the way of enemies. We have other characters who have life spells. I would take one for my Rebirth so I could get back up if there are no other Life spells for me. I might take more if the Earth Casters with Life spells won't be at event. But other then that I would probably take Death as it would help me do my job better.
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So, what you're saying is that as long as you feel that Life spells are plentiful, you feel comfortable memorizing a Death spell?
 
Well, it's the guessing game. Do I think there will be Death/Corrupt effects incoming? If so, Life is super necessary. Otherwise it's not. If I and other healers are on the ball, nobody should bleed out from dying to dead. If no one dies, Life is a wasted spell.
 
Draven said:
So, what you're saying is that as long as you feel that Life spells are plentiful, you feel comfortable memorizing a Death spell?
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I would still have some Death memorized, the extra Life Spell would be an RP in game reason as the guy that pays me for protection might need it if there are no actual Healers at the game.
 
Even though I'm nowhere near casting 9th levels and don't plan to get there any time soon, my character would be extremely uncomfortable memorizing Life except to use for a Rebirth, and would memorize Death or Healing Storm over Life at every opportunity.

Despite being seen as a healer, he has chosen to go the "dump Potions down their throat" route rather than the "memorize 20 healing spells" route; I only takes healing spells now because it's faster to cast a Cure Light Wounds than to dig through 30+ potions on small group adventures. In big town battles I have everything ready to go in the triage area and don't have to dig, so my healing spells are used for emergencies. He would only memorize Life if there was no one else capable of casting it.
 
If someone already mentioned this forgive me for repeating it, but has anyone discussed just dropping the level for Death spells?

Because I would seriously suggest they be dropped to somewhere in the vicinity of level 6.
 
Deadlands of Old said:
If someone already mentioned this forgive me for repeating it, but has anyone discussed just dropping the level for Death spells?

Because I would seriously suggest they be dropped to somewhere in the vicinity of level 6.
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That doesn't make much sense. The problem isn't that Death is underpowered. The problem is that Life is overpowered (arguably MASSIVELY overpowered).

Death is obviously superior to Sleep, Confine, and Paralysis in pure terms of combat effect. It simultaneously disables more effectively than all of those spells AND effectively does infinite combat damage directly to body. And, since it is a curse, it is part of one of the rarest effect groups in the game to be resisted (Selunari / Wylderkin change this a little, but not by much and almost nothing in the monster database resists or is immune), it is much more likely to actually trigger its effect than most comparable spells. The only other disabling spell that is comparable in terms of both power and likelihood of being resisted is Prison, which is also a 9th level spell.

A good way to look at it is this. If Prison and Life were both Earth spells, how many Prison spells do you think the average caster might take? My best guess is no more than one, and that one only intended to be used defensively. Death has no defensive use, so it isn't getting that slight boost in people memorizing.

In short, there is nothing wrong with Death. Assuming plot teams don't arbitrarily make whole monster types immune to it, it is almost perfectly balanced (based on its level) against other disabling / damaging spells. Life, on the other hand, is so overpowered that it should probably only be a high magic effect (at least in terms of game balance).

-MS
 
A circle 6 Death spell that is only reversible with a circle 9 Life spell is also waaaaaay out-of-proportion.
 
Durnic said:
A circle 6 Death spell that is only reversible with a circle 9 Life spell is also waaaaaay out-of-proportion.
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I think Gary was just looking for a way for it to be useful and not have to choose it over life.
 
This follow-up post is mostly an exaggeration (and supposed to be a jest!) I am using to illustrate how intertwined a lot of our system is and how changing a small part of it affects other parts:
  1. Death moves to 6th Circle.
  2. Either Life would have to move with it or Death wouldn't actually kill something, it would end up having to take them to -1 and be a effectively spell-delivered Slay so that normal healing could fix you.
    • Let's pretend, for the sake of this post, that we choose the second option.
  3. This would leave Life almost exclusively for two things: "whoops we didn't get to them in time for their dying count" and "they got hit by Corrupt".
    • (Though I guess this isn't any different now from "whoops we didn't get to them in time for their dying count" and "they got hit by Death". Only with Corrupt you get to move around and hit things!)
  4. Now Fighters and Rogues are mad because Earth scholars got spell-delivered Slays that you don't have to actually land with a weapon.
  5. Now you have to balance Slays again.
 
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Moral of the story....keep the gift school. ;-)

Corrupt is a very VERY deadly tool. You can basically insure res some one and not even mean to do that. I remember being created one time and having the npc say stay here, then a fight broke out and the npcs topk off. I was just standing still in the middle of the road until some one came over and was like wtf gilwing. Having a "body" moved can cause a res also along with seeing some one waking around. Since we don't rep that they were created, from far away a player might think that their friend is alive since they are up. Also they have to remember their death count while under the corruption effect.
Don't get me wrong, I like corrupt, just not as the reverse for life.

I will say that my answer to #5 would be "so". I believe an owner had stated that the classes aren't going to be balanced. A death spell right now does worse then a slay now anyway.
 
*shrug* Would totally depend on what role(s) I anticipate filling during that logistics period.
 
I think the downside in moving it down is that now I can hit the field with 30+ deaths AND 10 life spells. If it is supposed to be more widely taken by NPCs this could create an issue. This is also before any use of meditate, spell stores, or even the ol Sunday morning swap down. in the case of a level 12-15 character it may be more like 10-12 deaths, but it's still pretty significant.

My theory craft memorization
1. 10 healing
2. 10 magic armor
3. 10 healing
4. 5 healing 5 poison shield
5. 10 spell shield
6-8. 25 death
8. 5 purify
9. 7 life
9. 2 healing storm
9. 1 COP

By the time Sunday rolls around I have another 6-8 in my spell stores (if they are supposed to be as effective as we would think they were)



What about this
6 - Paralysis (it is weaker now with the addition of cleanse, putting it more in line with sleep)
7 - Destruction (again cleanse has made this easier to remove)
8- Death/Doom (I don't care what it's called, and if needed make it a spell that takes the target to -1 instantly)

Does that seem like a better curse lineup. Personally I think it fits the progression better, and would make it so that people aren't choosing between life and death, without devaluing it so much that plot teams have to plan against it.
 
I certainly like it...

But, maybe I'm an outlier here... I kinda like having more choices at 9.
 
Deadlands of Old said:
Let me rephrase.

I'm suggesting we drop it to something other than 9th. That may require moving other things around as well.
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I believe this suggestion is primarily based off of PC interactions with the spell and doesn't carefully consider how this affects NPCs, who generally have little need for Life spells. With this suggestion, an equal caster can have roughly twice as many Death spells as Life spells. That is particularly brutal once NPCs enter the picture, making Life spells, which will already become much more rare under the new rules, even more essential to memorize than they currently are.

I believe the end result of reducing the level of the Death spell (even by one level) is that Life spells will increase in value, thus effectively decreasing the value of all other 9th level Earth spells.

(Also, see my previous posts on why I think Life is overpowered, rather than Death being underpowered, and that any solution to this situation - assuming it really is a problem - should involve changing the mechanics of the dying condition so that Life isn't the only spell that interacts with it.)

-MS
 
mikestrauss said:
I believe this suggestion is primarily based off of PC interactions with the spell and doesn't carefully consider how this affects NPCs, who generally have little need for Life spells. With this suggestion, an equal caster can have roughly twice as many Death spells as Life spells. That is particularly brutal once NPCs enter the picture, making Life spells, which will already become much more rare under the new rules, even more essential to memorize than they currently are.

I believe the end result of reducing the level of the Death spell (even by one level) is that Life spells will increase in value, thus effectively decreasing the value of all other 9th level Earth spells.

(Also, see my previous posts on why I think Life is overpowered, rather than Death being underpowered, and that any solution to this situation - assuming it really is a problem - should involve changing the mechanics of the dying condition so that Life isn't the only spell that interacts with it.)

-MS
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You could just not stat your npcs with so many deaths?
 
Deadlands of Old said:
You could just not stat your npcs with so many deaths?
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We could also arm them with fluffy pillows, in order to devalue healing spells, but at some point, why are we doing that?
 
Draven said:
We could also arm them with fluffy pillows, in order to devalue healing spells, but at some point, why are we doing that?
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Sadly this happens, when I put a card into an NPC'S hands, there are some that I can moderate, others will find it a moral imperative to use everything on the card. This means that I need to be very careful with instant take out effects and whom gets them, but secondarily whom they are used against. If I put a Necromancer and his minions up against an APL 10 group, I don't necessarily want him chucking 8 deaths at that group. I still want my Necromancer, and I will give him some Withers, some cause mortgage, etc, but those don't necessarily remove an entire group from a fight. As a PC I have the luxury of controlling efficiency, as a Plot member I have the responsibility of providing an engaging challenge, but not to "win".

To me, this is the biggest difference of why we don't use fluffy pillows, or overwhelming amounts of insta-downs. It's important to find a balance. (Some mods do call for either of those though, so when you get hit by pillows and endless death spells in Seattle, you have been warned)

-Tony
 
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