Local Monster Flavors (Topic Split)

May be i am a bit blind to the inner working of how the game is run, after all i just play the game i don't run it i don't work in npc camp hell the most i do for the game is pay to enjoy it make props for my chapter and now and then double hook when the staff needed to overwhelm a group and finds them self short handed.

That being said, my PC whom i play every event been compiling data on her encounters with monsters, noting behavioral habits weaknesses strengths, its a vary fine and good and hard task and i realize any information i gathered might only protein to my chapters monsters, but its consistent, and i know if i took the information to another land, that some of the data would not cross over, heck most of it might not.

still something base should still remain, "its a kobalt watch out!" a red dog like looking thing "watch out it hunts in packs" you can talk to them they understand you, hell trick them and they will trust you even fight a long side, watch your back though they like to jump people in the dark, watch your back though they only have the minds of a child...

same beast a kobalt in a diffract land, might they look some what different yes.
maybe still described as a dog like beast maybe only now they are not red, but gray....

might the history of that Kobalt in that land make them act and behave differently even change there intelligence to something higher or lower, yes.

but what common threads remains, a weakness a strength?

I allays hear this in game,
"its undead ice wont work on them"
then I hear
"its undead ice wont work on them, well it will on some of them, some times..."
"its undead ice wont work on them.... nothings working!, try ice, it worked...."
"its undead ice wont work on them"

whats the point of paying a close eye on what your fighting if the data is going to be valueless... things change all the time, whats the point of calling beast A from B if it is allays changing.

In one chapter beast A and beast A may allays be constant and different from each other, making them there data stabal to that chapter, but cross over is needed. beast a should in some way still be like beast a even if its in another chapter.

the question then becomes what dues one cross over what factors remain base enough to allow creativity but allow the players like myself to feel they can gain some upper hand by working hard and putting data together. if there is nothing that crosses offer the effort becomes local only, and soon becomes un-worth the effort, or seen as unneeded, if you fight the same things all the time every one knows there strengths and weaknesses, but whats the information then worth to say a traveler whom is come seeking a way to beat the horde invading there home land and they have horde of the fears victory this land has had over the monster now invading there home land... if none of the data crosses over that is a wasted trip and wasted information and soon a discouraged player whom was thinking out of the box.... will just stop caring and that no fun.

there needs to be something that is stable, the question is what.
 
Regardless of whether you guys are joking with each other or not these statements are rather inflammatory and teeter on personal attacks. Please keep this in mind for future posts. Thanks.

jpariury said:
As you say - adventure, discovery, exploration, the thrill of the new. You sound an awful like some hick who never wants to leave home: "Dang it, Pa, it's dif'runt out thar in thuh world. Imma stay here where I know wut's wut.", or some guy who eschews Carl's Junior because they do all sorts of weird stuff with their burgers, and dang it, McDonald's is what you're used to.
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Mobius said:
And you sound an awful lot like a small-minded bigot. For shame, John. While I may be thick-skinned enough not to take you seriously there are plenty of people who would read what you wrote and be highly offended. There is absolutely nothing "weird" about the Beauty that is Carl's Jr. and I'd appreciate it if you'd refrain from saying otherwise.
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I think the discussion might be ranging into dangerous territory while people are talking past/at each other. I'm not sure that anyone is advocating that the monster manual be thrown away entire, or at least I'm not. My argument is that it does more good than harm if a few monsters or NPC types differ from the norm. It doesn't even have to be stats. In CT, elementals are pretty much all KoS, regarded as dangerous on lich-like levels. In NH, a short three hours away, many elementals are considered protected races and allies of the kingdom. This has led to numerous instances of intense role-play between chapter hoppers, and has never (to my knowledge) caused anyone to get upset and claim their fun was ruined.

Also in NH, all undead take double effect from flame damage, and are always affected by flame weapon blows. Any undead created by a Curse of Undeath are given extra body. These are fairly significant changes, but they are well documented out of game, and commonly known in. Again, there have been no complaints that I have heard, and I feel I would have if anyone had been annoyed enough to say something.

I certainly wouldn't be in favor of changing the chocolate pudding card to 750 body throwing arcane hallucinate willy-nilly and swinging 44 disease. Actually, I am a little bit, but mostly because I'm a sadist. My point is that I fully support variation from chapter to chapter but don't require or even suggest that every chapter go hog-wild with the random tweaks. Just enough to lend a different feel to the game.

Most creatures in Australia that are taxonomically similar to European species are introduced, such as cats and foxes. The quoll, or so called native cat, is a carnivorous marsupial that cannot breed with cats, climbs trees effectively, is two and a half feet long with a tail an additional foot and a half and has nearly three times as many teeth as cats. As for mice, species of jumping mice evolved in both Australia and Western North American deserts, but cannot interbreed and despite certain cosmetic similarities are different in several fundamental ways, including diet, lifespan and size.
 
Dan Nickname Beshers said:
I certainly wouldn't be in favor of changing the chocolate pudding card to 750 body throwing arcane hallucinate willy-nilly and swinging 44 disease. Actually, I am a little bit, but mostly because I'm a sadist. My point is that I fully support variation from chapter to chapter but don't require or even suggest that every chapter go hog-wild with the random tweaks. Just enough to lend a different feel to the game.
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W00t! Mod idea! PCs versus Bill Cosby, spawning Jello Pudding of Doom!
 
I think the biggest takeaway from this thread is this : internal consistency matters.
 
If you are talking about internal consistency on a single chapter level, I don't think anyone posting here is going to disagree. If you're talking internal consistency across chapters it sounds like we have a distressing number of plot people with wildly divergent ideas on what being an alliance of different chapters playing the same game means. I'm of the view that plot effects and non-standard monsters should be the exceptions rather than the rule, others who's opinions and ability to write/run a good game I respect have a diametrically opposite view. Those with access to the database, if you open the ReadMe and look at the second paragraph you'll see the following:

"This database provides some basic monsters that will be common throughout the various campaigns. This does not
mean that a campaign must only use the monsters contained herein. In fact, it is very easy to add new monsters to
your campaign's database and you are encouraged to do so."

This pretty much sums up my argument. Chapters have permission to make their own beasties and have the tools to do so. The disagreement here from my perspective is how much variance from the standard is acceptable without the chapter in question turning into a variant game entirely. Given the disparity of views expressed here by people who have large writing responsibilities in their respective chapters I find myself thinking that this is an important question for ownership but at the same time kinda scared to hear it.

@Dan, I don't think we've been talking at each other (except when I just @tted you now), I think this has been pretty much civil. We'll hug it out at your opener. :)
 
@toddo: That is the question, really. clearly, we've seen that pretty much all the posters are in favor of consistency on the chapter level. The Alliance as a whole, on the other hand, needs to better define the relationship between chapters in game. Are all these lands on one shared gameworld, and thus expected to be consistent with each other (for the most part), or are chapters seperate game worlds with their own rules and assumptions, which can be traveled between?
 
I more meant that there was a developing tone of "I'm right, accept it already" and less "here's what I think and why." Not to say I've never been guilty of that, you understand, just that I was observing it here.

I guess to sum up: I'm fine with and support make a handful of tweaks to help define local flavor. I am not okay with going through the standard MDB and rewritting left and right, nor do I support making random or inexplicable changes just to have made them; if it doesn't make sense in game, there is no defense for it out.
 
And I wouldn't be in favor of a rewrite of the entire MDB as much as an expansion of it. Every chapter has creatures that are wicked awesome and deserve to be part of the DB, and honestly I think the low level cards are pretty much fine as they are. Where the trouble comes in is in the mid range and high end. I would see a revision of the DB as focusing on updating existing monsters to be in line with the new rules and abilities of the last two rules changes while changing them as little as possible, creating a few new monsters in the mid-range in an organic fashion (i.e. a few midsize troll types, medium power gnolls to bridge the gap between War Gnoll and Hearteater, etc) and at the higher end creating a few new monster packets and revising old ones for monsters that haven't changed with the times. (Dan, I'm looking at NH's Fae packet as an example of something that is useful/awesome enough to go into the DB). This wouldn't be intended to replace or restrict, but rather to create a framework allowing writers to quickly create antagonists as well as give newer writers examples of how "standard" big bads are built so that they can make their own when appropriate.

Again, these are just my views and while I may disagree with certain points others are making I don't think there is really a right or wrong here. If I've contributed to the "I'm right" vibe it's been inadvertent, this is actually a really stimulating conversation for me and you all are giving me a lot to think about. Thanks to all involved for your candor and challenging views, I'm having fun here. :)
 
My feeling is that it's generally best to use the standard MM unless you've come up with a plot reason to do otherwise.

If I'm just sending out some undead as crunchies, but nothing wacky is going on in the chapter's plot regarding undead, I'd just use the standard, Alliance-wide undead.

If the icon of flame sacrificed his body and spirit that life may continue for thousands of mortals in a desperate battle to survive a war against the undead...then things might be different.

I suppose I expect a somewhat similar setup when I chapter hop. If I go on a mod to fight werewolves you bet your *** I'm going to ask around a little bit about werewolves to find out anything I can. If I don't get chance to ask around and it turns out I am dangerously under prepared to fight these double-from-lighting-immune-to-everything-I-brought-with-me werewolves...well...crap. I run? I die? Regardless, I have an adventure.

Would I rather always know with certainty what I'm up against? Nope. For me, that would be kind of boring.

Additionally, I don't understand all this "we are becoming islands" chat. Not every chapter has cross chapter plot with others (and I think that's a shame, because it's fun), but more chapters have been enjoying the efforts of cross chapter plot, and the monsters they involve, than in any other time I can recall. I've been playing for about a 11 years. Was there more cross chapter things happening before then? If so, shame on us. Let's work on it.

Gary
 
Just thought about it for sec.

I think we have had some cross chapter plot, small or big, with SF, OH, NJ, HQ, Chicago, Crossroads and CT. In particular, we've had monsters from CT and HQ and a giant construct doomballl thing from Crossroads. (Please forgive me if I'm forgetting anything.)

Is this typical? I'm guessing not, but it could be. Players and staff merely have to advocate for it to get the ball rolling...(HA! Puns. I'm a funny.)
 
I would prefer consistency, of course. It's what I'm always fighting for.

I'd love it if a goblin in one chapter was the same as a goblin in another chapter. After all, an elf in one chapter is the same as an elf in another chapter -- not sure why monsters should be so widely varied while no one else is.

At the same time, I have no problem with chapters making new monsters for that local flavor. I just wish they wouldn't call something that is as intelligent as a human and can cast ritual magics a "goblin" -- at that point, it's something entirely new.
 
I'm not pushing for anything that would legislate local plot, but I would like to see (local flavor aside, which should be maintained) consistency in standard fantasy monsters across chapters so that it feels like it's all the same world with the biggest differences chapter to chapter being the specific unique threats that serve to define that chapter.

As for cross chapter plot, there's a lot of ingredients to that particular sausage, the MDB being only one of them. I love cross-chapter stuff and would like to see more of it, but an expanded focus on cross-chapter plotlines would require a closer consensus on what the core values of the Alliance are so that all participating chapters are on the same page. I don't want to see the Alliance turn into McDonalds where you can expect the same experience pretty much wherever you go, but an agreement on what a hamburger is on a basic level makes McDonalds/Wendys/Burger King/Sonic/etc all able to be successful and able to cater to our collective need for beef in a bun. Cross chapter plot should highlight the awesome stuff going on in other chapters, while underlining the common elements of our game setting.
 
If anything, I'm shocked that there are any consistencies with monsters chapter to chapter at all. Flora and fauna wise, Each chapter is MORE isolated from one another than Australia is from the rest of the world.

50 million (or so I don't have the exact calendar date ; ) ) years ago, Australia split from the supercontinent and started drift south. and still is. in another 50 million it will probably join up with the south pole.

For a few million more it was probably still reachable by swimming or flight. Past that point, it was a mostly closed system developmentally.

I'm not sure how long the mists have been around for. but given a similar timeframe, and the absoluteness of their blocking non PC races from traveling the mists... we're basically looking at each chapter being almost completely biodiverse from one another,
Oddly, despite this biodiversity in the flora and fauna, all major settlements closely resemble a boy or girl scout camp. :funny:
 
Who says natural selection and evolution aren't magic?

Look at the humble Platypus. An uglier, more D&D style little homunculus does not exist. :funny:
 
I strongly disagree with you that platypus are ugly.
 
Conallmactuagh said:
I'm not sure how long the mists have been around for. but given a similar timeframe, and the absoluteness of their blocking non PC races from traveling the mists... we're basically looking at each chapter being almost completely biodiverse from one another,
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Therein lies the rub. The Mists are never explained in that exquisite detail and so there is no way of knowing whether such logic prevails. Besides, the fertility and gestation periods for most goblinoids is a fairly standard trope which means all it would take is a few getting across for whatever reason (silliness with Ritual Flaws, LCO effects, "Cross chapter plot", a troupe of Goblins not considered "monstrous", etc.) and ¡voila! instant introduction of swine to Gallapagos. With the huge variety of Magics, the murky "rules" of the Mists, and Fortannis' habit of getting into the most outlandish kinds of trouble there are no IG reasons to limit or explode biodiversity. That is to say, the only thing stopping the players from changing the game is the players.

And, that is the core of this discussion. We could create In Game reasons on both sides of the argument ad infinitum, but they're all just sound and fury. The reasons the Monster Database isn't more unified are all Out Of Game reasons: Local Plot doesn't want to have their toes tread; it's a lot of work; Cross-Chapter consensus would be needed (and she's a rare beasty, indeed). If we can overcome the later two and soothe fears over the former, that's the ball-game.

Conallmactuagh said:
Oddly, despite this biodiversity in the flora and fauna, all major settlements closely resemble a boy or girl scout camp. :funny:
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¿Proof positive that Baden Powell is the Prime Mover of Fortannis?
 
If you'll permit me to interpret for a moment, I don't think JP is saying that an update/expansion of the monster database would stifle his creativity or tread on his toes. Just that he finds it more useful to write the cards he wants than look for one that fits, and therefore it wouldn't be worth all the effort it would take. Nobody's suggesting an expanded database would prevent chapters from coming up with their own monsters.
 
Re: Redefining and Reviewing

Ezri said:
Personally I'm all for higher level monsters having a bit more local flavor, but I think things that were intended to be low level fodder should remain such. If I'm used to goblins being fairly easy to kill in Chapter A, even for little level 3 me, I can't imagine being steamrolled by APL 18 goblins in Chapter B is any fun at all. That doesn't exactly encourage chapter-hopping, which is kind of the whole point of being an Alliance.

It's hard enough for the little guys to be able to pick a winnable fight. I'd rather not mess with the things that are geared to low level players.
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I'm along the same lines here. It's good and well to have "spice" in the form of neat-o monsters, but you need the meat and potatoes to put that spice on top of to begin with.

There -should- be readily recognizeable standards for many monsters. If chapters are part of the same world, with regular (if limited) travel between them...there should be some common standards. Otherwise, you may as well have no national monster database whatsoever, as there's no need for it.

As for standards being limiting, I disagree. It encourages Plot to make something new to fill in gaps in power levels (and add those to the database), and a baseline to build them off of. It helps to give players going chapter-to-chapter at least SOMETHING similar besides other PC's.
 
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