Lock Physreps

As someone who has played a rogue in other games where legerdemain was useless due to no locks anywhere ever, I am very excited that locks are becoming more prevalent here.

As the rule book examples state, people can bring their own locks to an event to secure their stuff... I am actually impressed that plot here is pre-screening locks at all, saving our players from buying and returning All sorts of random locks that are too tough to open. I personally would be pissed if I played a race that was unable to sleep in a ward, and had to protect all my stuff with a diary lock that my baby sister could open with a wet noodle.

I was also quite titillated last event when a lock confounded our poor rogue because it was too dark and we had to debate carrying the chest it secured all the way back to the tavern vs. Shattering the darn thing. It added some themed RP to that encounter!
 
I think the argument is really about whether we should require OOP skills for IP abilities. One of the unique things about larping that makes it different from many other forms of role play is there is often a physical challenge involved where the participants must have OOP abilities to compliment their IP skills. That's how all combat in the game works. Just because you have the skill long sword on your character sheet doesn't mean you are very good with it. I could completely dominate a new player who has no experience boffer larping in combat, but there are plenty of players at this game who are more skilled than me who could do the same to me, regardless of what numbers we have on our character sheets. The same thing goes for spell casting. If you're fast, have an accurate arm, and are able to remember and rattle off your verbals quickly and chain spells together you'll be at a much greater advantage over a caster who can't. Almost all of these things can be learned through practice and repetition, and the game demands that you practice outside of the game environment if you want to excel. While there are always going to be those people blessed with natural talent, the vast majority of people in the game who are good in combat are good due to practice rather than innate physical ability.

Therefore I don't think it's unreasonable that there are other skills in game outside of combat that require an OOP physical challenge to accomplish, such as lock picking. You may not be able to pick all of the locks in the game, but I can't beat all the fighters in the game either. If I really wanted to dedicate myself to be at that level I'd start attending more fighter practices, working with the best fighters, learning new techniques, doing exercises to improve speed, etc. Now I'm pretty lazy and unlikely to do all of those things so as a consequence I am not going to be able to beat the best fighters in the game one on one. That's okay though. The same thing goes for picking locks. If you don't want to spend much time with it OOP then you'll probably not be able to defeat all the lock challenges in game. That's okay too, because plot has already stated that most of the locks you are likely to encounter won't be that hard, and the fact that there are more difficult ones means there is something to practice and aspire to. I won't comment about the monetary concern as I have no idea how expensive lock picks are or how easy they are to break while practicing.
 
I have to pay money and spend time to make spackets, that I still may not be guaranteed to hit a target with. I am with Thorgrim here, there is an OOP skill required for most things in this game. I could go to fighter practice or throw packets at my cats/fiance/wall to up my skills. Is it a fault of the game if I don't do that and cannot hit a monster with a dragon's breath? No. Do I ask the game to find a way that works for the bad thrower that I am? Nope. I tell myself I'll work on it, the same as my cardiac so that I can one day outrun the big bads (Mainly those played by hrafn)

Our game is very immersive and we set high standards for costumes and skills and after many people were sad that diary locks were lame and the only option, hrafn has spent a ton of their free time checking locks to see how pick able they are. That isn't something they had to do, but chose to do to help add more variety and enrichment to the game. I know other players have also bought locks to try them and when they struggled mentioned it to see if others could pick them. I do think that if I was sleeping behind just a lock I would most definitely have higher standards and that those standards should also reflect in game.

The mod I got rolled on a few months ago had some very weird, cryptic puzzles that I stayed VERY far away from, because they were puzzles I'm not good at, other members of my team were skilled and happy to do them. If I wanted to I could look up weird code breaking skills sets and buff up my mind for them, but I'm not likely to do that as I prefer mystery puzzles over pattern puzzles.

I have no intention of learning Ledgerdemain for Lumi but I would relish a chance to go to a lock picking workshop, bring them to fighter practice :) Then people can practice together and maybe get some hands on advice from friends on where things have gone wrong. It would also be a good way to see how other tools from your own play into it.
 
I think some have an issue with not knowing the full tool list or what kind of practice locks to look for. I see kits and practice units and the total without shipping passes the cost of an event quickly. It can be kind of intimidating and then you're there in the forest with a half dozen people all waiting on you to get that lock open while the night drifts on and they start slipping out of game. Yes an individual should need to practice some but I also expect the requirements to be balanced by the marshal on scene. After all, if moving on in a plot requires someone to be able to pick a 4-pin or some such and no one has that skill level on an OOG level, does the mod stop and just get dropped? Guess we'll have to see.

And that's where we really get into the nitty gritty details. Am I (or the group trusting me) going to be penalized because no matter how hard I try, I can't pick a complex lock? How long will the marshal (never mind the group) sit there while I fiddle and poke and curse trying not to break a tool... oh yeah, just broke that tool IN the lock. What's next? Mind you, these are just rhetorical questions for contemplation.

We all have trepidation concerning locks and there aren't that many locksmiths/picks out there and lock difficulty can change in just two different locks of the same make/model. So, because we aren't going out to buy the really neat old world style locks/picks, we should start from the direction of information. Thus, the question: If I was a new player, no information beyond the book, what would I need to have in a pouch to effectively take on traps and locks (or at least practice)?

Advanced question: How do I make that same pouch WITHOUT a single modern tool?
 
I've enjoyed reading all the opinions from players and staff on this issue, and very particularly those opinions which differ from mine.

I have a concern that we're developing a culture in our game of extending difference of opinion to objection to stating an opinion in the first place. Honest, polite, detailed feedback from players is hard to come by. I think that as a community, we really want to encourage that dialog.

Don't share my opinion that 1-tumbler locks are the bestest evar? That's cool. Respectfully to Pandi, however, I don't think that asking the game if we should be doing locks this new way is indeed comparable to what you suggest about being bad with throwing packets. I don't care for these fancy locks, you do, and that's great -- That's what we learn when we bring these things into open discussion. Let's all try to be respectful of open discussion even when we sometimes disagree with particular opinions being expressed.

Thanks,
Trace
 
I think the biggest issue is that more than one person has now broken a rake in the 4 tumbler lock (I go out and buy every approved lock type to practice on). I spent several hours today off and on attempting to pick both the 4 tumbler and the warded lock with limited success. I am betting I am not a natural at this but I have spent many hours on that warded lock and have only been able to pick it a dozen times or so.

And Val has a point. I might have done it to make a point but I am afraid to add up how much I have spent on lock picking and trap disabling tools. And I continue to spend money on it.

In my opinion, harder locks are cool once in a blue moon when they have been added to the approved list (so I can spend hours fighting with it) ahead of time. Or even once we hit much higher levels where we have had lots of time to get bored with the locks. I still get a tiny thrill when I manage to identify which diary lock is which and successfully pick it quickly (I use picks or makeshift tools instead of using one of the keys from any of the diary locks). It is satisfying to get to use this skill. I don't get to pick locks or disarm traps often so it is still interesting and fun to me. In the year I have played, I have picked 3 locks (I forgot one before) and disarmed no traps (I got to see one go off because Kendrick tripped on the box but haven't seen any others). Oh and I got to investigate a box while pretending to be under water and holding my breath. That was really cool and would have been super if it had a lock or traps.

So my thoughts are maybe a bit too soon on the harder locks but would be neat at higher levels. And breaking rakes sucks (though I have already ordered a replacement and some additional rakes and a tension wrench). And now I need to go research the picks/rakes David mentioned.
 
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Val McManamy said:
I think some have an issue with not knowing the full tool list or what kind of practice locks to look for. I see kits and practice units and the total without shipping passes the cost of an event quickly.
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This is a great point and one of those points of significant consideration. The reason why we specifically do not allow several varieties of lock that are not difficult to pick (e.g., wafer locks) in order to keep down the variability in the tools required in game. Part of the goal in having a "supported lock list" is to help provide a list of useful practice locks and to keep from wasting player's time/money on unsuitable locks when they really just want to lock up their provide protection for their barbarians.

As a general rule, you need:
  • Tools that will help you pick basic warded locks.
  • Tools that will help you pick basic pin-and-tumbler locks.
  • Locks to practice on.
I recommend prioritizing your approach. Don't try to do ALL THE THINGS but rather start with something basic and move from there. If your goal is to pick every diary lock (they aren't 1-pin locks, they are closer to a simple case of a warded lock) in the game then literally all you need is the key to any of the little silver or little bronze locks in the game. If you have legerdemain then this is your key to the kingdom of diary locks, and is also why I do not like diary locks for more serious tasks. I put one of the bronze ones on my lockpick ring because it is rather convenient as a way to open any of the three categories of the diary locks we've seen in game.

Beyond that: While it is easy to spend a lot chasing tools, you don't need to. A couple of basic tools will get you there.

For warded locks you can create your own by filing down keys of the locks you want to pick, people have also made them from a variety of other tools, but the principle is essentially the same: find the levers, turn them. You can also buy a set, which makes this easier: I use sparrows ($15), but there are others ranging from Southern Ordnance ($10, somewhat thinner) to Peterson ($30, reputation for being stronger).

As far as pin and tumbler locks go you can manufacture your own (improvised tools are a bit of a Thing™ in the locksport community, so there's quite a bit of advice on how to do this using everything from bobby pins to street cleaner tines). If you are looking to purchase a set (which does make your life easier if you are a beginner) then you are going to want:
  • A basic set of tension wrenches (they come with most lockpick sets).
  • A hook of some sort.
  • A rake of some sort.
A selection here is good, but far from essential: I have four samples of the lock in question from at least 3 different lots and I can rake all of them with any of my rakes and can single pin pick all of them with both the half diamond and the standard hook. Some of them are easier to open with one tool or another (for example, one of them opens more readily to a triple peak than a worm; another one is the exact reverse), but a minimalist set will still get the job done. Avoid key extraction sets, they aren't quite the same thing. Sets run anywhere from $10 (including a pouch) to several hundred dollars, with the individual tools running between $1 and $6 or so (more for the really high end ones, but there's no need to spend that).

The hook is the more essential tool, but a rake is a great way to open a lot of locks very quickly, particularly these.

Some general guidelines:
  • These locks (and most locks) are slightly stiff when you first get them, which leads to a temptation to use more force with the rakes/picks, which increases the chances of breaking the pick. Open them a few times with the key to loosen them up try to resist the temptation to force the pins (this was how I broke one of my rakes in an 4-spool-pin Abus lock). They are still pickable out of the package, but this will help smooth things out and make it easier to pick.
  • Rakes get the job done quickly but require a higher luck element, hooks will teach you the mechanics of the lock.
  • Tension is a lot of where I go wrong with lockpicking. Too much or too little will keep you from getting it set, so if it isn't quite working, varying the tension can sometimes get you there.
Regardless, I recommend prioritizing and choosing which set of challenges to tackle first after mastering diary locks.

Val McManamy said:
It can be kind of intimidating and then you're there in the forest with a half dozen people all waiting on you to get that lock open while the night drifts on and they start slipping out of game. Yes an individual should need to practice some but I also expect the requirements to be balanced by the marshal on scene. After all, if moving on in a plot requires someone to be able to pick a 4-pin or some such and no one has that skill level on an OOG level, does the mod stop and just get dropped? Guess we'll have to see.
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The general rule is: The harder the lock, the more likely it is there are other ways around it. If plot throws the Rendered Insane Lock of Insanity at you, it is because there's a way around it (a key, or maybe the non-stealthy version of the mod which will still aim to be a fun—albeit different—experience). Lockpicking becomes one of several ways through the encounter, rather than the only one (in one encounter I was on last year we had a diary lock and I hid the key in the room as part of the setup for the mod, if the PCs searched the room they could find the key tucked next to a window).

This is also why most locks can be shattered or destroyed. There may be consequences to doing so (e.g., you don't get to keep the lock as part of the loot, you can't lock the door on your way out, etc), but if speed is of the essence and you really can't field pick whatever the lock is for whatever reason (e.g., don't have a tool that will open the diary lock, which I've seen before with groups of adventurers), this will generally get you there. If it doesn't, then it is because either there is another way past it or there is some other unusual circumstance in play.

Val McManamy said:
We all have trepidation concerning locks and there aren't that many locksmiths/picks out there and lock difficulty can change in just two different locks of the same make/model. So, because we aren't going out to buy the really neat old world style locks/picks, we should start from the direction of information. Thus, the question: If I was a new player, no information beyond the book, what would I need to have in a pouch to effectively take on traps and locks (or at least practice)?
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Hopefully the above was useful, let me know if there's anything I left out! I really wanted more "old world"-style locks early on, unfortunately on inspection it turned out that most of those seem to have some combination of the following traits:
  • Massive variation even within a single make/model.
  • Requires heavy field-customization of the tools.
  • Easy to break accidentally.
  • High cost for reasonable quality.
So at this time I'm not comfortable really recommending any of the specific brands I've found.

Traps, on the other hand, are a completely separate beast. These are essentially mini-puzzles that you have to figure out on the fly, so there's a good list of suggested tools in the Alliance Rule Book (1.2, pg 23–24), but everyone is going to have their own favored approaches and tools.

Val McManamy said:
Advanced question: How do I make that same pouch WITHOUT a single modern tool?
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Are you looking for them to look antique or be antique?
 
In response to Val's point about feeling the pressure of being surrounded by other PC's all waiting for you to pick a lock to get through a mod open a chest, etc. I definitely understand that concern. I am sure the added pressure of having several people watching and waiting on you would make it that much more difficult. Personally I am not going to be upset if I have to wait around for a rogue to pick a lock. If it's a time sensitive thing then we should have been smart enough to bring a shatter. The fact that you have taken the time to learn how to do it at all is pretty great in my mind, and several minutes of standing around for an opportunity at better treasure or a safer mod is still a pretty good deal in my mind. If you are unable to pick it I won't be mad, I am much more likely to blame the lock than the rogue in such an instance.
 
The issue with the broken rakes is that both of us broke them after playing with the lock for a while. I think mine broke on my dozenth successful pick where I was being careful and paying attention to what I was doing (trying to actually learn the trick). Most likely I weakened it messing with the lock earlier but still frustrating to manage to pick the lock, go to try again and discover your pick is broken.
 
llywelyn said:
For warded locks you can create your own by filing down keys of the locks you want to pick, people have also made them from a variety of other tools, but the principle is essentially the same: find the levers, turn them. You can also buy a set, which makes this easier: I use sparrows ($15), but there are others ranging from Southern Ordnance ($10, somewhat thinner) to Peterson ($30, reputation for being stronger).
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I am under the impression that this is frowned upon or not allowed since they become something like skeleton keys. But I could be wrong.
 
Joelle Paxton said:
I am under the impression that this is frowned upon or not allowed since they become something like skeleton keys. But I could be wrong.
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There's nothing wrong with skeleton keys (otherwise we would disallow picking the diary locks using the key for other diary locks), we just don't allow bump keys.
 
Even with a skeleton key, having the skill on your car is still the barrier to entry. Technically you're "picking" the lock with the skeleton key.

Trace
 
David - Thank you for your response. It was very educational and helpful. It gave me a direction to look in for developing and practicing a fun skill.
 
It seems like the main question being addressed is if people think having Legerdemain should be enough for picking locks. While I'm not a rogue in game, I personally feel some level of OOC skill, and the appropriate tools, should be required for lock picking. I understand some people don't want to spend money or time on this. I realize it can get expensive and potentially frustrating. Personally, though... I also agree with the rulebook and others who have expressed this opinion: just having the skill on your card shouldn't be enough.

I think one thing everyone can agree on: diary locks are stupidly easy to pick. They offer zero challenge. In combat terms, it's like fighting someone under the effect of paralyze; as long as you have some kind of tool, even one not designed for the job, you can get it done. That being said, if a given lock (not necessarily a lock TYPE, seeing as how construction may differ between individual locks) can be picked by an amateur with the appropriate tools, it should be allowed.

Would it be feasible to have individual locks checked, similar to weapon physreps? Because two locks of the same type could potentially be different, would it make sense for a lock to be checked, then marked somehow, as being ok for use? This may only need to be a one-time check, since the lock can be marked as "ok" afterward.
 
KnightKlaw said:
I also agree with the rulebook and others who have expressed this opinion: just having the skill on your card shouldn't be enough.
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Tyler,

That isn't all of the issue actually. Sure, some people don't want to be required to buy more expensive tools (some can't afford it) or learn harder locks than diary locks. Yes, the diary locks are easy. Problem is...I do want to learn to pick locks but the ones I have been attempting to pick are not as easy for some of us. There shouldn't be a big barrier that if people don't have a decent feel for picking locks then they are screwed. I have a very comprehensive kit and continue to add to it and have practiced for hours on the two locks that are causing the biggest issues. Obviously I don't have a good feel for picking locks but am still trying OOG. However, it would be really frustrating for me to run in to complicated locks at this point because it is all luck for me. And I am supposed to be a lock maker and should be able to pick those locks IG. So there is something to be said for "Be all that you can't be" that is LARP. Some skill, yes and even the expectation that at higher levels with more experience we might have more skill but these are plain frustrating.

Just like anyone can get by with some skill as a fighter and have a chance to get better the more you play. They also can spend build to get the illusion of being better by getting better/cooler abilities. This isn't the case with Legerdemain. Either you have it or you don't IG and you can either pick locks or disarm traps OOG. Perhaps it is something as simple as you attempt it and if you can't pick it after a certain amount of time (5 or 10 minutes or something) and you have the proper number of levels in Legerdemain, then you get something to bypass the lock (the key, an easy lock to attempt or something). Something to represent what you can't be in game. Then the skill would fit more with other skills in game.
 
I guess that's my question, then. What level requirement for OOG skill is acceptable? If diary locks are too easy, and these are too hard... is there a happy medium? I watched the video provided above on the lock in question and I was really surprised at how many times the person in the video picked it, with varying tools, and without any trouble whatsoever. I'd really like to try it myself. It's also why I suggested that maybe there's variations in manufacturing that causes two locks of the same type to potentially have drastically different skill requirements.
 
KnightKlaw said:
I guess that's my question, then. What level requirement for OOG skill is acceptable? If diary locks are too easy, and these are too hard... is there a happy medium? I watched the video provided above on the lock in question and I was really surprised at how many times the person in the video picked it, with varying tools, and without any trouble whatsoever. I'd really like to try it myself. It's also why I suggested that maybe there's variations in manufacturing that causes two locks of the same type to potentially have drastically different skill requirements.
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I would love to see a wider variety of locks that cover a range of difficulties, along with incremental practice locks (I have a bunch, but most come as part of sets and thus I don't really want to recommend people buy 3 practice locks they don't need for the one next step up; either that or they are lock cores, not really "locks" per se). If people discover them and would like to submit them, I'd love to check them out.

For the record, I am the person in the video. I own four of those locks from at least 3 separate lots. Three of them are pretty consistent other than slight variance in tool use, but one of the four is more difficult to pick using traditional tools (I think there is a manufacturing flaw on the keyway—or I might have damaged it, either way—that makes tension more difficult). I can still get it open once I get the tension wrench set correctly (which usually takes a few attempts), so I am comfortable if PCs want to use it as a rep, but would probably avoid putting it specifically out there vs. one of the other three.
 
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