Loot sack!

Aaand missed like 8 posts while typing.
 
Okay. So first off, I did not hear anyone from any group complaining that they did not get loot because they were NPC'ing. We all knew going into it that we wouldn't get a share of loot split if our PC's weren't there and we chose to NPC because we want to help the game and it is fun to NPC. So before we start making accusations about players being greedy, this is a thought exercise and not a response to any complaints that I have heard (and I think Mike/Kendrick already confirmed this).

Kendrick does raise an interesting point though in that we should do our best to reward players for taking NPC shifts not punish them. If you look at it purely from a value/monetary standpoint, our characters are getting punished for NPC'ing in that we earn far far less doing it than we would being part of a loot split. NPC'ing for the Orc/Anarchy fight I worked a 3 hour shift. That's 30 goblin stamps which equates to 3 silver. Now I wasn't in charge of that split but I am pretty certain I would have earned more than 3 silver if I PC'd it, maybe Kendrick can confirm this. That said my character wasn't at risk, and I didn't have to use any consumables or anything so maybe it does end up being a wash in most cases.

I think the solution to this is easy though. If every large group takes NPC shifts from time to time it all balances out. If 10 to 15 players switch teams and NPC it means more loot from that encounter due to more bad guys, and a larger percentage splitfor those involved because there are fewer PC's to divide it up amongst. Now if it ends up being the same 10 to 15 players taking an NPC shift every game, and some of the larger groups never take a NPC shift, then they will probably have a slight monetary advantage in the long run, but they are also missing out on an opportunity to improve the game, and missing a lot of fun doing something new and different with your team. I don't regret NPC'ing for the battle on Saturday night at all and would do it even if there were no goblin stamps. I would encourage others to sign up to NPC in groups as well, and if everyone is doing it, then everybody wins.
 
This idea that people think their -characters- are being punished in any capacity, monetarily or otherwise, for not being at a fight is really, really wrong. Like serious guys. No. Punishment implies your character is being somehow losing something they already had or had an automatic right to, wich is false in all cases, nothing is garanteed even if you are playing your character. This is patently the -wrong- attitude and that mindset seems to imply that the players time spent is somehow damaging to their, ultimately, 'imaginary freind'. THeres a dramatic lack in understanding of the divide between the In-character and out-of-character but there is something else that I simply -cannot- wrap my head around as to why some of you kids are thinking like this.

And If noone is ASKING for IC repayment for NPCing (wich is good if they arent, because thats the correct attitude.), why are we even having this discussion? We always thank them verbally, they are getting rewarded by plot, they're contributing in a way they know is good for the game and its being acknowledged both tangibly and karmicly.
 
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And his name isnt Kendrick, its Mike. Our GI joe names are not our real names and we shouldnt be useing them in ooc discussions. Thats, I think, some part of this problem and detrimental to understanding and keeping that IC/OOC divide.

-Briana
 
Being in charge of loot sack, I think Mike is primarily concerned about making it as fair as possible for everyone involved both in and out of play, and he saw something that could potentially be seen as unfair and decided to bring it up for discussion, which seems reasonable to me.

IC you are absolutely right, there is no justification for why we would ask for a split from that fight for not being present. The OOC point is that we want to encourage people to continue to NPC because look how much more fun the game is when we have a large group of NPC's for these large battles. It's an opportunity cost issue. Nothing is guaranteed, but by choosing to NPC I am choosing to forgo an opportunity to potentially get more items/money for my character by participating in a battle. In exchange I get to have fun NPC'ing and do get some reward for doing so. The benefit for me is greater than the opportunity cost therefore I chose to NPC. Some people might feel like the opportunity cost they are giving up is greater than the value they get from NPC'ing and therefore they would rather not do it. That's fair as well. The question is should some additional incentive be provided to these people who feel that the opportunity cost > the value they get for NPC'ing. I don't think that we need to do that yet, but it is a reasonable question to ask.
 
FWIW I certainly wasn't expecting anything from an IC perspective after NPCing saturday night, which is why I was a little confused at being tipped out after. I'd actually like to return that coin to you Mike. The introduction of loot sack has helped things, and while I appreciate the sentiment of providing additional thanks to everyone who goes turncoat for the experience, I think it's expected by anyone who takes an NPC shift that they aren't going to get a share of any town spoils from a fight that happens when they're not in character. Thankfully, there are other rewards for doing so. No need to worry about IC rewards.
 
I think that's the case with a lot of people, that they do not NPC for the gobs or IP rewards, but people play the game for different reasons. Some think NPC'ing is fun, others find it a chore. Some people care a whole lot about loot, others care nothing about it. There is no right or wrong way to play, and we shouldn't discount play styles that differ from our own. Ultimately we can't please everybody though so in the interest of fairness we should try to determine what method is the most agreeable for the most people and constantly look to improve our methods to be inclusive of as many different people and play styles as possible.
 
Here is some historical perspective that you may (or may not) find interesting about why the reward system in Alliance is called "Goblin" points/stamps:

Many years ago, Alliance and NERO were the same parent organization. When the game was young, and had only one chapter, its original system offered actual Experience Point (XP) chits on monsters. You killed a monster (like a goblin, for example) - the NPC handed you a tag worth so many XP.

Game Logistics staff, in particular, had to work at check-in over the first few hours of game time. Back in those days, events always started with the Friday Night Opening Ceremonies field battle, like clockwork. Logistics staff would miss the field battle every event because they were working.

Game staff was unavailable... to go kill goblins... as their PCs.

So the game invented "Goblin Stamps" to reward volunteers in lieu of the rewards they might get while actively adventuring.

Since 1989, this same game has evolved in many ways, among them the split of Alliance from NERO, but that was the inception of why we have this reward system in the first place.

Just thought that historical context might be interesting in consideration of this larger issue.

Trace

P.S. I do not agree with dealing in PCs turned NPCs in loot sack; I think Goblin Stamps, and the larger reward of simply feeling good for making the game better is the right speed -- Nevertheless, BIG PROPS to Will for the suggestion! Your heart is in the right place. I love that you're looking out for the welfare of players/PCs who are doing the right thing!! :)
 
Thorgrim said:
Okay. So first off, I did not hear anyone from any group complaining that they did not get loot because they were NPC'ing. We all knew going into it that we wouldn't get a share of loot split if our PC's weren't there and we chose to NPC because we want to help the game and it is fun to NPC. So before we start making accusations about players being greedy, this is a thought exercise and not a response to any complaints that I have heard (and I think Mike/Kendrick already confirmed this).
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I overheard such, as did others. And its from groups/people claiming otherwise. So hopefully it was just a bad choice in wording in how they said this.

Thorgrim said:
Kendrick does raise an interesting point though in that we should do our best to reward players for taking NPC shifts not punish them. If you look at it purely from a value/monetary standpoint, our characters are getting punished for NPC'ing in that we earn far far less doing it than we would being part of a loot split. NPC'ing for the Orc/Anarchy fight I worked a 3 hour shift. That's 30 goblin stamps which equates to 3 silver. Now I wasn't in charge of that split but I am pretty certain I would have earned more than 3 silver if I PC'd it, maybe Kendrick can confirm this. That said my character wasn't at risk, and I didn't have to use any consumables or anything so maybe it does end up being a wash in most cases.
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Pretty much a wash or loss in that fight for many of us, lotta consumables and so forth - and two people took deaths.

However, this issue is not one of what drops IG, but instead the reward offered by the game for NPCing. This is something I have provided feedback on.

If NPCing is its own reward for you, that's awesome. I love it, like honestly prior to July I didnt know there was as sign-in-out sheet for GS, cause like...I'm just weird-crazy enough that I'm like DUDE I GET TO NPC STUFF just like Messmer is - were nerds. However - that only goes so far for normal people who aren't Labrador retrievers for NPCing like a few of us. I strongly feel that NPCs (full weekend and PCs who take shifts) deserve better rewards than 1 silver an hour worth of GS. If the MI picks were more available to the PC shift takers, and they were priced more like DS is, I think it would be a much bigger, and fair-er feeling draw to players NPCing.

Thorgrim said:
I think the solution to this is easy though. If every large group takes NPC shifts from time to time it all balances out. If 10 to 15 players switch teams and NPC it means more loot from that encounter due to more bad guys, and a larger percentage splitfor those involved because there are fewer PC's to divide it up amongst. Now if it ends up being the same 10 to 15 players taking an NPC shift every game, and some of the larger groups never take a NPC shift, then they will probably have a slight monetary advantage in the long run, but they are also missing out on an opportunity to improve the game, and missing a lot of fun doing something new and different with your team. I don't regret NPC'ing for the battle on Saturday night at all and would do it even if there were no goblin stamps. I would encourage others to sign up to NPC in groups as well, and if everyone is doing it, then everybody wins.
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Multiple games have something called a double hook - one team NPCs for the other team, and they switch, ie everyone gets a turn so to speak. Usually this is done with mods from what I know. However, people pay to be a PC all weekend, and the system does not require NPC shifts, so nobody deserves to be looked down upon for not NPCing. If anything, the ones who choose to NPC should be thanked and rewarded OOG for this - ideally in a way that reasonably approaches those that take the risk and spend the stuff to go to the fights.

Like, I get the concern with getting loot. Monster stats just keep increasing (8 Paralysis anyone?) and the fights keep getting super dangerous (Orc/Anarchy fight anyone?) so the ability to survive through expendables and gear, kill stuff before it murders you, so forth is becoming much more important as our build no longer increases at a rate to compete with the situations were being put in. But I really feel that the reward comparison of NPCing for a long time vs actually being there and taking the risk is symptomatic of the reward offered to the NPCs, not anything else.
 
I have to agree with Porch/B/Messmer on this... On the few chances I'm able to sneak away and npc, I do so with no expectation to get any reward myself, and I expect nothing, and do not feel entitled to such. Yes, it is possible to miss out on the loot that comes from that fight, but by NPCing, you make the fights better, and, taken in the perspective of benefit to the town, while you personally might not get anything, until we all start killing one another, any loot gained from a fight indirectly benefits you, as it is on the side of the town.

While a number of characters have life items, for instance, these barely ever benefit that character in particular, but they benefit everyone around us, and the same can be said for most other loot.
 
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I think the IC and OOC sides of this should stay separate. I personally don't feel the need to get additional resources IC from my time NPCing. I NPC because I enjoy it, it allows me to see and play a different side of the game, and the game on a whole is better for it. If there are players that feel there is too great an opportunity cost to NPC then perhaps the rewards should be greater, it is really difficult to say that because we haven't seen the Magic Item list at the end of the year or the GP cost to make a pick from that list. I think Porch has it right when he suggests if people feel not rewarded enough we should grant more GP or different things to purchase with GP rather than reward the PCs of the players that take an NPC shift with in-game rewards through narrative gymnastics.
 
"Labrador retrievers for NPCing"...my new favorite phrase.
 
Thorgrim said:
If you look at it purely from a value/monetary standpoint, our characters are getting punished for NPC'ing in that we earn far far less doing it than we would being part of a loot split. NPC'ing for the Orc/Anarchy fight I worked a 3 hour shift. That's 30 goblin stamps which equates to 3 silver. Now I wasn't in charge of that split but I am pretty certain I would have earned more than 3 silver if I PC'd it, maybe Kendrick can confirm this.
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Cause I hate unanswered questions

Splits were:
Friday - Pike - 89
Saturday - Bugs - 32
Saturday - Land Bond - 84
Saturday - Darius's Mom - 188 (which I missed cause I was getting ready to NPCs)
Sunday - Bugs - 39
 
As for the number of goblin stamps that magic items cost:

Times ever items are generally [10 GS * spell level * # times ever]
Times per day items are generally [120 GS * spell level * # times per day] for an item that lasts one year. (Note that there are 17 adventuring days in a year - 2 each for the 8 events plus 1 for the mod day - if you PC all the events.)
 
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