PirateFox
Scholar
#2... Do strikes work entirely different from spells, then? Normally once an aura is up, it's up for all weapons. Is that no longer the case for the spells, or is it just the rit version that's different?
Magic, Elemental, Earth/Chaos Strike
- Thread starter dontneednoname
- Start date
#2... Do strikes work entirely different from spells, then? Normally once an aura is up, it's up for all weapons. Is that no longer the case for the spells, or is it just the rit version that's different?
Mark of Chaos
Artisan
To piggyback/clarify PirateFox's question, does this mean I need two weapons with this ritual if I am dual wielding and wish to use the same Strike with both hands? Are claw users just S.O.L.?
Draven
Count
The rituals are to be used with the augmented weapon, they do not carry over to other weapons (like the Blade spells).
Claw users get unbreakable, undisarmable weapons for 8 Build Points. While it's true that they can't ritually augment them, they can still totally use Blade spells with them.
Since we're moving away from Aura/Damage rituals for weapons, the power disparity between Claws and Weapons is, in reality, significantly less.
Edit: The exception being the Poison Cache/Trigger rituals. This is an option for weapons that isn't really able to be duplicated for Claws.
The feedback that was received in response to my earlier inquiry was roughly as follows:
"It depends on each ritual - some might be castable at higher difficulty for multiple charges, others not. No matter what, each charge takes up one Ritual Slot on an item."
The specific text for each of the rituals will likely not be posted in the playtest documents due to length and lack of direct impact on the playtest process itself. For playtest purposes in calculating the total number of rituals on an item, please consider each instance of Poison Cache or (whatever) Strike to take up their own ritual slot.
"It depends on each ritual - some might be castable at higher difficulty for multiple charges, others not. No matter what, each charge takes up one Ritual Slot on an item."
The specific text for each of the rituals will likely not be posted in the playtest documents due to length and lack of direct impact on the playtest process itself. For playtest purposes in calculating the total number of rituals on an item, please consider each instance of Poison Cache or (whatever) Strike to take up their own ritual slot.
Draven
Count
This is a broad generalization that isn't necessarily true.
I've been playing for 5.5 years, I didn't have DS until NPC'ing for the recent Nationals event that happened to be at my chapter.
Magic weapons almost never drop in our chapters, due to the fact that phys reps are expensive to provide. (I know of one, and it was recently).
As for GS rituals, that's going to be based on the local chapter. Again, a broad generalization.
Draven
Count
That's a really weird comment to make.
1) "I've never seen that many magic weapons before."
2) "It's really easy to get a magic weapon because of GS/DS."
Which is it? Your point doesn't really make any sense.
Draven
Count
It was weird because your comment implied that Seattle had more magic weapons than you were used to seeing, while you made a comment that everyone can basically have a magic item super easy.
So, Seattle's situation should be the norm, but your own description of how easy it is to get magic weapons.
Anyhow, sure, we can totes go back.
Durnic
Knight
In response:
1. That is entirely up to the policies of said chapters and not within the purview of this discussion.
2. If you are playing a claw-only character then you are choosing to limit yourself by not being able to put rituals on your claws. This is true in 1.3 and in 2.0. You could have chosen OHE or another weapon skill but instead you bought claws. In response you get at lease one undisarmable and unshatterable weapon. Honestly, I think that's a pretty good trade-off. If you really, really want to use some weapon-only rituals than you should probably learn a weapon skill and swing a weapon. In the same way that if I want to learn to throw spells off of scrolls I gotta learn Read Magic. That might not be the answer you want to hear, but that's the way I personally feel about it and the way I'm going to vote on it unless I see some hugely compelling arguments to the contrary.
3. Seattle is a very, very old chapter (that started as a NERO chapter, that's how old it is) with some of the people there having played for nearly twenty years. It is a very difficult to compare to a chapter such as Denver which, as you well know, has a level cap and is probably a considerably less "magical" chapter than Oregon or Seattle.
1. That is entirely up to the policies of said chapters and not within the purview of this discussion.
2. If you are playing a claw-only character then you are choosing to limit yourself by not being able to put rituals on your claws. This is true in 1.3 and in 2.0. You could have chosen OHE or another weapon skill but instead you bought claws. In response you get at lease one undisarmable and unshatterable weapon. Honestly, I think that's a pretty good trade-off. If you really, really want to use some weapon-only rituals than you should probably learn a weapon skill and swing a weapon. In the same way that if I want to learn to throw spells off of scrolls I gotta learn Read Magic. That might not be the answer you want to hear, but that's the way I personally feel about it and the way I'm going to vote on it unless I see some hugely compelling arguments to the contrary.
3. Seattle is a very, very old chapter (that started as a NERO chapter, that's how old it is) with some of the people there having played for nearly twenty years. It is a very difficult to compare to a chapter such as Denver which, as you well know, has a level cap and is probably a considerably less "magical" chapter than Oregon or Seattle.
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Draven
Count
Why?
A fighter with Claws is probably going to have OHE, for the reach advantage. While I know at least one Claw fighter who relies on Claws (though she hasn't played in years), this is a niche.
A Rogue with Claws is probably going to have OHE for the same reason, though it's less likely (if they aren't relying on a straight-up fight, the need for reach is less important).
A Scholar with Claws doesn't need a magic weapon.
If someone really, really wants to rely on Claws as a primary weapon, there's an avenue - find a caster (or become one) that can memorize Blade spells in those circumstances that it's necessary.
In what way are claws more disadvantaged in the playtest rules than in the live 1.3 rules?
Mark of Chaos
Artisan
Without even touching whether they are or are not... do they NEED to be MORE disadvantaged for this to matter? There are changes occurring to weapon enchants. Some players see an issue with claws' inability to use these Rituals (15-20% of the total combat-focused rituals at a quick guess) in some form.
One of the largest is that there is no more Expand Enchantment ritual to allow for Magic Blade and Earth blade, which allowed claws to swing one of these carriers. With the ritual changed such that they are applied only to a weapon, and can only affect the same weapon, a player who pays the 8 Build for claws, and up to 12 more for Florentine and Two-Weapon, can't get these outside of having someone cast them for them, or spending more build to use other weapons. Its been said they will be needed less perhaps, but in the case of earth blade, I doubt we'll see fewer undead in most campaigns.
If the undisarmable or unshatterable state is the over powering part, perhaps this needs to be looked at as well, perhaps adding a 5 second unusable state behind your back because the effect stung... That seems a reasonable trade off to be able to receive these rituals which would be applied to a soul-bound weapon that can't be traded among teammates.
Durnic
Knight
They are not any stronger or weaker in 2.0 than they are in 1.3. They were not targeted for nerfs and they have not received any. No one has some kind of agenda against claws.PirateFox said:
Claws cannot be targeted for Damage Auras, Elemental Auras, Earth Auras, Spellparries, Channel Spells or any number of other rituals right now in 1.3 and I don't see anyone complaining about that. Arguably it is a much bigger detriment to them in the current paradigm with DAs and EAs than it will be in 2.0 with all of the magic item and build changes available.
Everyone else who can't memorize those spells or get a friend to put them into a Spell Store is also losing that option, leaving them on the same footing as claws are in 1.3.BChapin said:
This would be a nerf to Claws. If hit with a Disarm or a Shatter right now in 1.3 the proper response is "no effect". I do not see this changing in 2.0. No other weapon in the game gets to do this, aside from crazy Plot "body weapons" or whatnot. I realize that you are saying you wish to trade 5 seconds of behind-the-back time for being able to have magic items that are spirit-linked to you by default, but I just don't see that as a compelling change. Claws are still good.BChapin said:
Right now, in 2.0, claws are no stronger or weaker than they are in 1.3.
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Alright. Clearly this is a topic that several people feel strongly about. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with people being passionate about the game; quite the opposite. Passion for the game is very important. But if that passion is producing anger without substance it needs to be put in check.
The loss of Expanded Enchantment blade spells isn't one of the biggest drops in power for claws. It is the only one. Claws were previously available to two races: Sarr and Kin. Sarr are being removed. With that removal, Claws were under review to be removed from the game. Instead, they are now automatically available to all Kin and no longer carry the opportunity cost of taking up one of that character's two racial skill slots. That change for the positive was my proposal, and it is why claws are still available at all.
Several of you seem to be under the impression that Claws are somehow no longer valid targets for beneficial rituals they previously could receive. This is categorically false. In fact, the opposite is again the fact of the matter. With the removal of all rituals that added passive damage bonuses to a weapon, the damage gap between claws and other weapons is gone. Claws are now more competitive with swords than they were previously. The weapon targeting rituals in the playtest are significantly less powerful than Damage Aura and Monster Slayer, which to reiterate cannot be cast on claws now.
The cost of claws is not going up. They no longer prevent Kin from taking other racial skills. They no longer do 3 to 8 less damage than a longsword. Activated Blade spells are gone for everyone, not just claw users. Yes, this affects claws more than weapons, I acknowledge this. Claws are totally unaffected by the revamped Disarm and Shatter, meaning also that a claw user can use thoae improved skills with no fear of having the effect returned.
Passion for the game is a good thing, and I in no way want to discourage anyone from being passionate. However, combative and aggressively opinionated posting motivated by passion is disruptive to the play testing process and is precisely the reason we removed the old rules discussion and theory boards. Do not turn the play tests into a personal crusade. It is counterproductive.
If you are in any way upset with this post, please feel free to tell me how unfair or awful I am being in a private message. I have very thick skin, I don't mind at all. This is not the place for it.
The loss of Expanded Enchantment blade spells isn't one of the biggest drops in power for claws. It is the only one. Claws were previously available to two races: Sarr and Kin. Sarr are being removed. With that removal, Claws were under review to be removed from the game. Instead, they are now automatically available to all Kin and no longer carry the opportunity cost of taking up one of that character's two racial skill slots. That change for the positive was my proposal, and it is why claws are still available at all.
Several of you seem to be under the impression that Claws are somehow no longer valid targets for beneficial rituals they previously could receive. This is categorically false. In fact, the opposite is again the fact of the matter. With the removal of all rituals that added passive damage bonuses to a weapon, the damage gap between claws and other weapons is gone. Claws are now more competitive with swords than they were previously. The weapon targeting rituals in the playtest are significantly less powerful than Damage Aura and Monster Slayer, which to reiterate cannot be cast on claws now.
The cost of claws is not going up. They no longer prevent Kin from taking other racial skills. They no longer do 3 to 8 less damage than a longsword. Activated Blade spells are gone for everyone, not just claw users. Yes, this affects claws more than weapons, I acknowledge this. Claws are totally unaffected by the revamped Disarm and Shatter, meaning also that a claw user can use thoae improved skills with no fear of having the effect returned.
Passion for the game is a good thing, and I in no way want to discourage anyone from being passionate. However, combative and aggressively opinionated posting motivated by passion is disruptive to the play testing process and is precisely the reason we removed the old rules discussion and theory boards. Do not turn the play tests into a personal crusade. It is counterproductive.
If you are in any way upset with this post, please feel free to tell me how unfair or awful I am being in a private message. I have very thick skin, I don't mind at all. This is not the place for it.
Mark of Chaos
Artisan
So, out of curiosity, why were claws on the chopping block? Sarr aren't really going away, just being absorbed into Wylderkin. I think that info could be rather enlightening for some of us as we continue the discussion.
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