Magic, Elemental, Earth/Chaos Strike

So, out of curiosity, why were claws on the chopping block? Sarr aren't really going away, just being absorbed into Wylderkin. I think that info could be rather enlightening for some of us as we continue the discussion.

I wasn't even part of the team that built the playtest rules and yet I can answer this one. It has to do with how Kyn rules are defined. Kyn can choose two racial abilities that belong to OTHER races. With Sarr gone, there no longer was a race that had the Claws skill. The only way for Kyn to keep Claws was either for another race to gain the skill (no good choices that I can think of) or for them to gain it as an automatic racial skill.

-MS
 
Interesting. I understand there needing to be a talk about how to handle claws at that point, but that seems like a silly reason to think about completely removing a skill. If there was discussion about removing the skill I would think it was deeper than that. I would argue that the binary choice presented isn't the only ways to fix that issue (though would seem divergent enough for another thread if we wanted to go down that hole).
 
Returning to topic then (or at least something that is part of the topic), I have a question about Earth Blade.

Are we keeping the name Earth Blade or would it be more intuitive to change the name?

It stands out from its opposite (Chaos Blade) because the name of the spell (and what you say in the incant) is different from what you swing. In one case you incant Chaos Blade and then swing Chaos. In the other case you incant Earth Blade and then swing Healing. The storm spells also follow this behavior, which may make it easier to understand, at least for casters. For those that don't cast, though, who may have this spell cast on them, I can see some potential confusion.

I'm not really suggesting anything, per se, just pointing out some possible confusion in the new rules.

-MS
 
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Presently claws are extremely under powered in the current rules system. We are kidding ourselves if we think that the majority of melee focused characters are not running around with magical indestructible weapons at most chapters no matter how they were obtained (DS, GS, Rits, drops etc). Given the prevalence and relative ease of acquiring unbreakable weapons, one of the primary benefits of claws (their unbreakable nature) is largely moot except to new players. So the primary benefit of claws is that they cannot be disarmed. Granted this is useful. Now lets look at the down sides. Claws cost 3 more build than 1 handed edge for a fighter, rogues and scouts, 1 more for templars. Claws cannot be imbued to swing for magic, earth/chaos, or elemental carriers. This is a huge disadvantage. Being able to double your damage against certain types of enemies and more importantly affect a number of different creatures is invaluable, and far better than any advantage gained from not being able to be disarmed. Furthermore they cannot be imbued with MS or DA to increase their damage, another huge advantage of using weapons over claws. Last their max length is limited compared to a 1 handed edge user.

Now lets look at claws in the new system. First I do agree that claws are improved because of addition by subtraction (DA and MS going away). No longer will claw users have to choose between using claws and swinging for more damage. However, they are still unable to benefit from earth/chaos aura, elemental aura, magic aura, etc. The impact of this might be felt less if indeed we do see a lot fewer enemies who require one of these carriers to hit, but we're still giving up the option of doing double damage straight to body in the instance of earth aura. So the question becomes is the advantage of being immune to disarm worth foregoing 3 additional build, the extra reach provided by a long sword vs a claw, and the inability to have any special carriers added to your swing. I personally don't feel that way.

I would also like to comment on Dan's post

Passion for the game is a good thing, and I in no way want to discourage anyone from being passionate. However, combative and aggressively opinionated posting motivated by passion is disruptive to the play testing process and is precisely the reason we removed the old rules discussion and theory boards. Do not turn the play tests into a personal crusade. It is counterproductive.

I feel that we as play testers have almost been forced into "aggressively opinionated posting" because frankly we are frustrated and don't think our feedback means all that much and we're just wasting our time here. We as players had zero input into what went into the new rules. That was all ARC and the owners. Anyone who presents a new idea or a change to an existing rule is told to send it to their chapter owner, and they can present it to the other owners and ARC. Given how busy the owners are, and the reluctance to make additional changes mean that such requests are largely pointless. Then when we find flaws in the new rules through reviewing and play testing them, we are told to just put it on our feedback form and if enough people complain about it, then it will be looked at. So we do that and then the new play test version comes out, nothing has changed. So we come on the forums and publicize our problem with a rule, and hope to get others to feel as strongly as we do, so that they include it on their feedback form., Then if we're able to convince enough people to put it on their feedback form where it meets some critical threshold of complaints, then maybe, just maybe ARC and the owners might look at changing it. And then we're basically told to quit complaining if it's something we personally don't like. Frankly as a play test coordinator and a play tester the chance of any of my opinions, or other players in my chapter's opinions having any meaningful impact on the new rules seems so minimal and it takes such a herculean effort to get anything changed at this point, it feels like why bother?
 
However, they are still unable to benefit from earth/chaos aura, elemental aura, magic aura, etc.

Rituals, yes. Effects, no.

These are still available to claw users via battlemagic spells.
 
I am sorry you feel that you aren't being treated fairly when it comes to playtesting and giving feedback. I can personally assure you that we have made a lot of changes based on feedback responses. For one specific example look at the Empowered Armor ritual and its evolution as we have gone through playtesting.

If claws receive any changes at all it is likely going to be in the vein of build cost reduction, as Dan pointed out in this same thread earlier.
 
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I feel that we as play testers have almost been forced into "aggressively opinionated posting" because frankly we are frustrated and don't think our feedback means all that much and we're just wasting our time here. We as players had zero input into what went into the new rules. That was all ARC and the owners. Anyone who presents a new idea or a change to an existing rule is told to send it to their chapter owner, and they can present it to the other owners and ARC. Given how busy the owners are, and the reluctance to make additional changes mean that such requests are largely pointless. Then when we find flaws in the new rules through reviewing and play testing them, we are told to just put it on our feedback form and if enough people complain about it, then it will be looked at. So we do that and then the new play test version comes out, nothing has changed. So we come on the forums and publicize our problem with a rule, and hope to get others to feel as strongly as we do, so that they include it on their feedback form., Then if we're able to convince enough people to put it on their feedback form where it meets some critical threshold of complaints, then maybe, just maybe ARC and the owners might look at changing it. And then we're basically told to quit complaining if it's something we personally don't like. Frankly as a play test coordinator and a play tester the chance of any of my opinions, or other players in my chapter's opinions having any meaningful impact on the new rules seems so minimal and it takes such a herculean effort to get anything changed at this point, it feels like why bother?

Sorry for your experience, but as an owner I can tell you that I do take a lot of time to listen to my players/playtesters and ANY discussion we have that I believe is beneficial to the 2.0 ruleset, I pursue. I post in the Owner's group, chat with ARC and create proposals etc. You need to get on your Chapter Owner it is as simple as that. That is the job they have chosen to do, to represent what your chapter wants. If they are not doing that, then it is not the fault of the playtest process to be very blunt.

Tons of work has been shaped by the playtesters. Tons more will continue to be shaped until we decide that it is the best version and we release it.
 
Yeah, I am basically the bogeyman + sarcasm.

@Thorgrim - please allow me to extend my own empathy alongside that of Rick and Corey. I have said it before and will say it again, we really do appreciate all the effort that is being put into this by play testers and coordinators. This has been a long process, and a slow one, and I certainly understand how it can become very frustrating over time. I am always happy to try and clarify intent of rules changes, either publicly or via PM. I regard it as a vital component of the playtesting process, and I am very sorry that the earlier playtesting was so opaque.

Let me say that again: We the owners should have been more directly involved as part of a back-and-forth from the beginning. We dropped the ball there. I dropped it. I'm sorry.

With that having been said: there is nothing to be gained from turning this dialogue into a fight. It doesn't help. If you feel you're not being heard, you can contact me personally and tell me that. I do my best to answer PMs as promptly as my work schedule permits. If you want an actual dialogue I will get on Skype with you and we can actually talk it out. You, and all playtesters, are real people who deserve real respect and I want to provide that. But I, the other owners, and ARC require respect as well. That's the only way this works.
 
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