[.11] Magic Strike needs to be General

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
Sure, but making EB scrollable isn’t a fix, either. It’s still going to be a non-solution for O/B.
 
So... Oathsworn and Biata now have to work with other Races who can use Celestial magic? I'm not seeing the issue here, since one of the major goals of 2.0 (as stated by the owners) is to encourage teamwork.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
I don't think we are off track here. I think removing 'to hit' from monster cards is an alternative solution to your concern as opposed to adjusting the ritual, and you kind of shut that down.

However, if you specifically only want to talk about making Magic Strike a General Ritual, I don't think it's a big issue if it's restricted to Celestial only (I think Celestial is underpowered as it is already). I think it fits nicely with the core principle of Alliance. Not every character/class can do everything.

Having to have multiple races/classes work together seems like a fundamental part of the game to me. Opening up Magic Strike weakens that.
“Working together” like the Caster putting a Blade Spell on an O/B isn’t a solution that’s actually workable unless you want those players to ignore racial requirements.
 

Seabass

Scholar
South Michigan Staff
So, we're kinda off track here.

Back to the OP:

Assuming that functionality isn't changing, can we please make Magic Strike a General Ritual, so that two races aren't excluded from what's currently an important Solution carrier?
The original point ignores the fundamental problem. A limited resource in a "to hit" situation is good for NO ONE. It doesn't matter who is casting it. I was attempting to look for validation in your first concern and plot out what a potential fix it could present. Clearly we have found an underlying problem that the original idea does not address at all.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
If you’re fighting monsters than O/B literally can’t effect, you’re not using teamwork, you’re sidelining your players.
 
I already offered several solutions to what an Oathsworn or Biata could be doing in cases where only weapons with the Magic Carrier are effective.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
The original point ignores the fundamental problem. A limited resource in a "to hit" situation is good for NO ONE. It doesn't matter who is casting it. I was attempting to look for validation in your first concern and plot out what a potential fix it could present. Clearly we have found an underlying problem that the original idea does not address at all.
You’re not wrong, but I’m coming from the assumption that Immunity Pass/Fail is always going to be a thing. If someone proposes otherwise, it’ll get my support, but I’m skeptical as to where it’ll go.
 

Ardos

Artisan
South Michigan Staff
that is literally what 80+% of the people in this thread are saying, also there are multiple supportive skills for fighters now in this theorized unable to do anything situation.
 

Seabass

Scholar
South Michigan Staff
You’re not wrong, but I’m coming from the assumption that Immunity Pass/Fail is always going to be a thing. If someone proposes otherwise, it’ll get my support, but I’m skeptical as to where it’ll go.
I'm saying now is the time to address it. It is a much bigger problem that clearly we need to see to. It will affect so much, not just resources and magic tree balancing, or the disadvantages of races that chose to have said disadvantages. Plus... "to hit" just really isn't fun in the end. Even minimized means you got a chance. We should address root issues since we are uprooting our game to rebuild it into something great. At least I feel that way :)
 

Banradi

Adept
South Michigan Staff
If you’re fighting monsters than O/B literally can’t effect, you’re not using teamwork, you’re sidelining your players.
I don't think this is a problem with the ritual. Firstly, I think this falls on the players understanding what they're getting themselves into by playing that race, and everything that comes with a restriction to celestial magic (Wards, Celestial COPs, Rituals, etc). If you don't like the restriction, don't play the race.

Secondly, it's up to the plot team to adjust as necessary. If town is fighting a big bad that has Magic to Hit, and there is a high population of O/B, then there should be something else that can engage them. (I'm coming up with this on the top of my head, but perhaps they have to complete some sort of puzzle/ritual/etc that only O/B can interact with to weaken the big bad, and remove the "Magic to Hit" immunity on the card.)

Also, Pantherghasts are literally a monster that only a specific race can affect.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
I don't think this is a problem with the ritual. Firstly, I think this falls on the players understanding what they're getting themselves into by playing that race, and everything that comes with a restriction to celestial magic (Wards, Celestial COPs, Rituals, etc).
Man, I hate this argument. I really hate it. It's not you, it's that argument. Here's why.

As a new player, I picked a racial that's utterly stupid (there's more details to it than that, but suffice it to say that I didn't know how bad Racial Slay was when I got it). 30 damage, can swing until lands? That's awesome!

Man, do I hate that ignorance now.

I've heard players who decided to play Biata and "knew" they were giving up Celestial magic, but they had no idea how big Celestial magic is. They didn't know how much it would impact their friends getting Wards, how much it would impact the rituals that were available to them, how much it would impact who their Protective casters were, etc. Like, they knew there'd be some inconvenience, but as they get to midbie status, they're like, "Oh god, I made a mistake."

Our system is deep and it's got some serious complexities that are hard to fathom until you're actually interacting with those parts of it, only by that point you've already made some decisions that have consequences you had no way of understanding until it was too late.

My proposition is an attempt to weaken the racial imbalance that exists on characters that are denied Celestial access (because removing that denial is actually impossible, particularly for Biata).

Having Pass/Fail Carrier Immunities is bad for the game, and if that can be removed, cool. If not, then the Solutions need to be equally available to everyone, so some players who picked O/B don't just have to settle for clowning around while everyone else can engage normally. It's not fun, and if it's not fun, why have it?
 

Seabass

Scholar
South Michigan Staff
My proposition is an attempt to weaken the racial imbalance that exists on characters that are denied Celestial access (because removing that denial is actually impossible, particularly for Biata).
I think the racial imbalance comes more from a whole game attempting to accommodate two races that can't use a school of magic. I know many players that make the huge disadvantage of no celestial work for them. I know more that have race changed to ditch the issue all together. I for one want both schools to maintain their individuality where both are balanced, powerful, and neither is perfectly ideal. Race restrictions is not a reason enough to mix both clear and vibrant colors into a muddy grey.
 

Alavatar

Baron
Oathsworn and Biata is hard mode due to the exclusion of Celestial magic by default.

Personally, I wish there was a Race that mirrored Oathsworn, except have contempt for Earth magic. It would be doable; Alchemy healing would just be expensive.
 

Feldor

Scholar
A thematic race to have hate earth would be some sort of non-evil undead race, which hates both earth and necromancy because they are not undead by choice. Maybe let them be in some way elemental aspected so one element heals them. Or maybe even just some sort of elemental heritage race, where the heritage means they dislike Earth.
 

Chad Schaffer

Newbie
South Michigan Staff
Did I miss the post where someone suggested that we change Biata and Oathsworn to not have this negative?

Logically: We have two races with an aversion to Celestial magic, this is a negative to playing these races.

By making Celestial effects general, you remove that negative; the argument being that the negative is too much.

Can we just replace the negative, and have two distinct schools of magic instead of giving everything that should be distinctly Celestial to Earth so two races can also use it.

Wouldn't that make more sense?

How about double damage from foundation elements? How about no rule affecting RP weakness, just like all the other races?
 

Accleates

Newbie
So, I haven't posted before but I wanted to throw my two cents in. I agree that playing a biata can be difficult if you don't understand what you are getting into but honestly I knew by the end of my first game how hard it was going to be. I mean the first night we had to figure out wards and such I knew it was going to be tough. I could have chosen to change my race after that first game but honestly I love the fact that my race has a consequence. I would be sad to see it go as I feel it helps define the character and forces me to think outside the box for solutions that are typically just "apply a celestial spell". Those that don't I would think would change their race. I understand that with some things you don't see the poor choice you made in your build or what not til later but with biata you know pretty quickly how rough it is going to be.
 
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Inaryn

Knight
Are Pantherghasts still requiring magic to hit in the new monster DB?

If so, logically, in game, why would there still even be biata? If magic carrier is celestial only, there IS no other work around for dealing with that enemy. You can't team up with other races... it's biata versus Pantherghast... and the biata is going to lose.
 
With regards to Pantherghasts: There are three different kinds in the DB that I have access to. All of them are immune to damage from any creature not the right Race (which will obviously vary from one to the next). 2 of them take 1 damage from Normal weapon swings, 1 of them takes 1 damage from Normal or Silver weapon swings. They have other defensive abilities I won't share here, but they are not blanket-immune to anything not Magic, and in fact even the two that minimize damage from Normal and Silver are still damaged normally by any Carrier that isn't one of those two (barring aforementioned immunity).
 

Alkalin3

Administrator
Chief Technology Officer
South Michigan Staff
Marshal
I think it's best if we stop sharing Monster DB stuff.
 
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