Making everyone important.

MaxIrons

Knight
Marshal
Make offensive skills matter and they become a better option than damage.

How? No clue.
Branching this off as I think we have been trying to solve the wrong problem. We have been trying to make damage less appealing by making it cost more, rather than make fighter skills more appealing. In short, Fighters had less good options, and we went about punishinh them for taking the best option available. My proposal here, that I want to get a good look at before writing up to go to my owner is this: Every class should have something only it can do. To this end, I'm looking at the 0.9 spell list and removing some. These abilities then become fighter/rogue only.


Celestial

1: Evocation Bolt 5, Fortress, Light, Lesser Investment

2: Evocation Bolt 10, Repel, Slow,

3: Evocation Bolt 15, Bind, Wall of Force, Solidify

4: Evocation Bolt 20, Awaken, Banish, Enhanced Blade, Shun

5: Evocation Bolt 25, Release, Spell Shield, Subjugate, Lesser Magic Storm

6: Evocation Bolt 30, Elemental Shield, Sleep, Wizard Lock

7: Evocation Bolt 35, Confine, Charm

8: Evocation Bolt 40, Dispel, Reflect Spell,

9: Evocation Bolt 45, Circle of Power, Magic Storm, Prison, Ward

Removed: Disarm, Mend Armor, Shatter, Stun Limb, Weapon Shield

Earth

1: Cure/Cause Wounds 5, Endow, Turn Undead / Control Undead

2: Cure/Cause Wounds 10, Repel, Slow

3: Cure/Cause Wounds 15, Bind, Sanctuary / Desecrate, Weakness,

4: Cure/Cause Wounds 20, Awaken, Cleanse, Cure Disease / Disease, Shun

5: Cure/Cause Wounds 25, Release, Silence, Spell Shield, Lesser Earth Storm / Lesser Chaos Storm

6: Cure/Cause Wounds 30, Earth Blade / Chaos Blade, Elemental Shield, Sleep, Wither / Restore

7: Cure/Cause Wounds 35, Charm, Confine, Destroy Undead / Create Undead, Destruction

8: Cure/Cause Wounds 40, Purify / Drain, Reflect Spell, Paralysis

9: Cure/Cause Wounds 45, Circle of Power, Earth Storm / Chaos Storm, Life / Corrupt, Death

Removed: Disarm, Poison Shield, Shatter, Weapon Shield


There are a lot of details that aren't gone into here to start with, and I'm specifically looking for feedback as to how to make this idea better. With that said, moving these to physical abilities only does double duty. It makes these abilities special to martial characters, and once a caster gets his weapon shield popped he needs a martial buddy to intercept/reapply weapon shield. Otherwise physical damage is suddenly dangerous, the same way that martial classes need casters for spell/elemental protection.

Edited for grammar.
 
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tieran

Duke
Gettysburg Staff
Marshal
So you want to make the casting of the weapon shield spell a fighter/rogue ability?
 

Avaran

Baron
-.
 
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Eldor

Artisan
First let me say I think the whole debate over fighter damage will be likely resolved by the nerfing of magic items, and I would prefer to see that implemented before we start making other big changes to the game, that may end up creating new problems. Because of that, I would want to play test this out before deciding if it is as good an idea as it sounds, yet I really think you have hit on a good idea here.

While I and likely all casters would greatly miss having Disarm, Shatters and Weapon shield, your plan gives fighters significantly more reasons to take specialty strikes over just loading up on damage. Also it makes shields more relevant considering only melee types could disarm or destroy them. That being said I would want to make sure shatters are not to inexpensive for a melee as I could see melee NPC's really ruining melee PC's days by destroying all their items early on as they come out in waves using all their skills.

I also like how Poison shield would become a boon for alchemists to sell, further enhancing the spending of coin.

The removal of Weapon shield from scholars would make it less likely that they engage in melee range, yet a Spellsword or Adept would still be able to, making it more tempting to play one. In fact this change would be a great boon to Spellswords and Adepts as it is rarely cost effective for them to purchase more than a few proficiency's.

As to Mend Armor, I personally don't think it should even be a spell, and with all the new skills that allow the faster refitting of armor, I don't think it is really needed, at least not by casters.

One thing this change would definitely do, is make physical damage more dangerous to casters as it should be.

It makes these abilities special to martial characters, and once a caster gets his weapon shield popped he needs a martial buddy to intercept/reapply weapon shield.
If these changes were implemented, I actually don't know if Weapon shield should exist anymore as melee classes will have dodge and evade, while casters best stay out of melee range. This again would be a boon to Spellswords and Adepts who would be casters who can get close to their targets with less fear of being dropped by a melee attack.

Your whole idea reinforces the dynamics of each class, as each will excel at their focus, yet be weak at its opposite. While the cross classes will be decent at multiple class skills yet not excel at any as they lack a specific focus.
 

MaxIrons

Knight
Marshal
So you want to make the casting of the weapon shield spell a fighter/rogue ability?
Not "casting" per se, but a fighter skill. Every purchase allows the weapon shield effect. It can be flavored/called whatever, but the fundamental effect of stopping the next single weapon attack is generated by fighters, not scholars.

As for poison shield, I had rogues in mind for that, but this is super preliminary thoughts, brought here to hash things out.

Edited for clarity.
 
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Alavatar

Baron
I still think the issue would be solved if defensive abilities were changed from "Negates the effect" to "Reduces/changes the effect". Whether it is a reduced duration, reduced damage, whatever, this at least has every ability actually do something rather than constantly seeing who has more defenses to negate abilities than their opponent.

An argument could be made for a top-tier defensives for each class that is a complete negation of a type of thing, but make it have challenging pre-requisites.
 

Agnar

Newbie
Making Poison Shield an Alchemy only thing makes Alchemy even more ridiculously powerful than it already is.
 
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Saephis

Squire
Making Poison Shield an Alchemy only thing makes Alchemy even more ridiculously powerful than it already is.
Alternately, a reason to have more than 3 people with Alchemy above 3, and more reasons not to just hoard coin between encounters. :)
 

MaxIrons

Knight
Marshal
While I don't think it's your intent @Saephis that could be read as snarky/confrontative. Text can be an awful medium for tone.

That said, I understand where Agnar is coming from. Alchemy has so many take-out effects that reducing the defenses against it is scary. To be clear, my intent wasn't to remove/reduce the number of defenses against poison, but to change where they come from so that a "balanced" rogue build would produce one every 25 build, which is what column earth scholars do now.

To address something from Eldor, the argument about disarm/shatter being too cheap resulting in NPCs ruining low PCs day is not really valid. Plot can put as many or as few abilities in a card as they see appropriate. There is nothing other than common sense and being a good plot member from putting out a monster card for lowbie that has "Spellstrike: Shatter at will" right now. That falls into "trust your plot team" land.
 

AlikVanmil

Newbie
So, just a quick question as to your reasoning for removing the shield spells... Why? My main is a support character. And speaking from that minority of people who are perfectly fine with being in the background while the "Heroes" do there thing, the shield spells give us something that keeps us relevant to the Heroes while also gives us something to have if we get into a situation where we need that sort of thing. In an edition of the game where at least I thought one of the main focuses had been to promote teamwork, this idea completely goes against that notion.
 

Saephis

Squire
So, just a quick question as to your reasoning for removing the shield spells... Why? My main is a support character. And speaking from that minority of people who are perfectly fine with being in the background while the "Heroes" do there thing, the shield spells give us something that keeps us relevant to the Heroes while also gives us something to have if we get into a situation where we need that sort of thing. In an edition of the game where at least I thought one of the main focuses had been to promote teamwork, this idea completely goes against that notion.
In short, it makes others important, rather than simply a scholar being the one-stop-shop for deterrence of anything that may ail you.

For more detail:
  • The abundance of Magic Armor / Weapon Shield / Whatever spells versus Prepare-to-Die / Powerful Blows diminishes the efficacy of the latter, in character builds that are already very lean on daily usage skills.
  • Poison Shield's availability on daily magic usage negates production abilities (in Alchemy), as well as creates the further bolstering of Scholars being the end-all-be-all of abilities, moving it to an Alchemy and/or Potion Making defense only bolsters an under-represented demographic while bringing class balance better into line.
 

Agnar

Newbie
If Alchemy was only usable in the day it was produced then that would be one thing, but the fact that Alchemy can be stockpiled is part of what makes it so overpowered. Removing the main defense against it just makes it even worse.
 

Muir

Fighter
Eh, it's no more problem than the existence of scrolls. Alchemy's a little easier to use in that it doesn't require a light, but they're still the same store of effects via production.

Removing the defenses for either makes them very strong, in those limited situations where a character can afford to buy the tags, or has invested enough build to stockpile their own production.
 

Draven

Count
I'm definitely not big on the idea of removing the spell version of it. Production skills should be useful, but I don't they should be -that- critical.

I think it's enough that it can't be made into a potion.
 

Saephis

Squire
Removing the defenses for either makes them very strong, in those limited situations where a character can afford to buy the tags, or has invested enough build to stockpile their own production.
And this is why the removal of Cloak/Bane/Activatable Spell Shields is going to be so crippling of non-caster characters. :)
 

Agnar

Newbie
Eh, it's no more problem than the existence of scrolls. Alchemy's a little easier to use in that it doesn't require a light, but they're still the same store of effects via production.

Removing the defenses for either makes them very strong, in those limited situations where a character can afford to buy the tags, or has invested enough build to stockpile their own production.
Scrolls are not anywhere near as easy to use as Alchemy. You have to have actually read the scroll and touch the packet to it. They really only work well when attached to a shield or to re-up after a battle.
Alchemy can be "cauliflowered" like spells and you can choose whichever Alchemy effect you want to throw as long as you have the tags on you somewhere.
Have you ever seen a squad of shady PCs out to kill someone? I'll give you one guess as to whether they're loaded up with scrolls or Alchemy.
Alchemy is overpowered and it always has been.
 

MaxIrons

Knight
Marshal
Be that as it may Agnar, again, I'm not seeking to reduce the number of protections against alchemy, only what their source is.

@AlikVanmil - I too play primarily a support character (unless elementals show up), so I understand how this feels scary. It felt scary writing it, but I think it's for the benefit of the game as a whole, even if it's at the expense of my own personal character's flexibility. The idea behind it is that we truly make martial characters the masters of weapons and weapons defense and spell casters the masters of spells and spell defense. I'd even move Weapon Shield effect (re-contextualized) into a blacksmithing item, or having a certain level of blacksmith to take the Weapon Shield skill. So, you could build as a magic support character, a martial support character, or a hybrid support character, giving those who do want to play support characters more viable choices for how to do so. So... yeah, that's the idea behind this.
 

James Trotta

Spellsword
Diversity Committee
While I agree that alchemy is crazy overpowered and getting worse with the new rules, I don't know that moving where poison shields come from would make any difference in terms of the OPness of alchemy. Every shady PC would still need two packets to take down anyone playing the wrong race.

However, making poison shield a rogue skill may be problematic. First, in chapters I've played there have been few PC rogues. If 5% of the PC have access to poison shield, then things could get weird. But really, lots of players from different classes will be picking up poison shield because it would count toward their rogue build for buying dodges. So giving rogues poison shield probably doesn't even help rogues as much as it helps fighters (who are now buying dodges because they can't buy profs in the new rules).
 

Draven

Count
Alchemy is getting another significant buff in the current .9. With MIs getting removed, you can't "Activate Purify" yourself out of a problem, outside of using a Times Ever.
 

Gilwing

Administrator
Alliance Logistics
Alliance Owner
Alchemy is getting another significant buff in the current .9. With MIs getting removed, you can't "Activate Purify" yourself out of a problem, outside of using a Times Ever.
But you can use OP high magic
 
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