[.11] Mend Armor
- Thread starter MaxIrons
- Start date
Well phooey. That's my fault.
I do think it competes unfavorably with Weapon Shield at 2nd level. Though I personally think it's still very useful - there are plenty of cases where I'm fighting something swinging a nasty carrier of < 10 damage that I'd rather have Mend Armor - I do think people would be more receptive with it either at 1st level (still doing 10 points of armor repair) or 3rd level doing 15 points of armor repair, so it doesn't directly compete with Weapon Shield. I don't think either case would be unbalanced or replace Blacksmiths in any way - the intention is to help deal with carriers mid-fight, not emulating a full refit.
-Bryan
I felt less inclined to have a Weapon Shield up at all during the play test than ever before. Your mileage may vary, but there seemed to be less cases where it was really necessary. That said, Mend Armor at 4 for 20 actually seems better to me as the spells there are generally more niche. Having a good near universal utility spell there seems to be a better fit in my opinion than trying to compete with Bind & Shatter.
Draven
Count
I can attest that Weapon Shield feels way more like a 1st level spell now than a 2nd. I had a few up because I tend to play tank role and it gave me an extra bit of help against big hitters, but not enough to warrant more than a couple memorizations. Using Pin to isolate an enemy felt way more useful.
I think a WS at 1st and a 10 pt MA at 2nd (maybe 15?) seems reasonable.
I think a WS at 1st and a 10 pt MA at 2nd (maybe 15?) seems reasonable.
Ko the Wizard
Newbie
I personally feel like Mend Armor would be fine remaining at Level 2 but the 10 points of repair it gives is not worth it.
In my opinion I think that it should repair the entire armor value. While that may seem dramatic it is resolved by a since Shatter Skill, Spell, or any carrier that ignores armor. So even if someone opts to "tank" with just Mend Armors there are many ways to overcome that strategy. It also makes it competitive with Weapon Shield. I was on the front line during the playtest and I believe that you have to be more prudent with when you apply your Weapon Shields. They are not something you just walk around with anymore they are something you seek to Cast or Ingest when you observe a reason to do so.
But Mend Armor is just not going to compete with a Pin, because of the CC, or a Weapon Shield the moment something swings more that 10+ damage or has a carrier on its swing. Thus any real engagement beyond 10'ish level it feels like it would become irrelevant. But Mend Armor that repairs all your armor would remain a viable niche strategy regardless of level.
Additionally I think that it needs to be able to repair Indestructible Physical Armor thus further incentivizing the addition of more players in interesting and thematic armor phys-reps.
In my opinion I think that it should repair the entire armor value. While that may seem dramatic it is resolved by a since Shatter Skill, Spell, or any carrier that ignores armor. So even if someone opts to "tank" with just Mend Armors there are many ways to overcome that strategy. It also makes it competitive with Weapon Shield. I was on the front line during the playtest and I believe that you have to be more prudent with when you apply your Weapon Shields. They are not something you just walk around with anymore they are something you seek to Cast or Ingest when you observe a reason to do so.
But Mend Armor is just not going to compete with a Pin, because of the CC, or a Weapon Shield the moment something swings more that 10+ damage or has a carrier on its swing. Thus any real engagement beyond 10'ish level it feels like it would become irrelevant. But Mend Armor that repairs all your armor would remain a viable niche strategy regardless of level.
Additionally I think that it needs to be able to repair Indestructible Physical Armor thus further incentivizing the addition of more players in interesting and thematic armor phys-reps.
Draven
Count
I think restoring all armor would put it way beyond the scope of what a 2nd level spell accomplishes, by far.
Pin, at best, is a temporary hindrance/opening creator for any monster with any degree of extra strength. It doesn’t take away fighting capability, but can potentially help break up clumps of enemies or at least damage their positioning. Repel and Slow are hurt by the fact they can be ripped from, so Pin is definitely Lord of Binding as far as 2nd level is concerned, sure. But full armor restoring? That would practically make any other Spell a waste at second, and possibly even be too good for 3rd (especially for Celestial).
I would definitely be cool with a stronger Mend Armor, but if it was doing 30 or more points, I’d want to be at least 4th level.
Pin, at best, is a temporary hindrance/opening creator for any monster with any degree of extra strength. It doesn’t take away fighting capability, but can potentially help break up clumps of enemies or at least damage their positioning. Repel and Slow are hurt by the fact they can be ripped from, so Pin is definitely Lord of Binding as far as 2nd level is concerned, sure. But full armor restoring? That would practically make any other Spell a waste at second, and possibly even be too good for 3rd (especially for Celestial).
I would definitely be cool with a stronger Mend Armor, but if it was doing 30 or more points, I’d want to be at least 4th level.
Ko the Wizard
Newbie
I disagree that other spells would be a waste based on some of the solutions to how players or monster would get around armor but I understand.
If it was higher level I would not have an issue with that either. At 4th level it feels good but I would even think it would be fitting up to 7th level if it could work on any kind of armor (Arcane, Physical, Shattered, etc).
If it was higher level I would not have an issue with that either. At 4th level it feels good but I would even think it would be fitting up to 7th level if it could work on any kind of armor (Arcane, Physical, Shattered, etc).
Ken
Artisan
Is this accurate? I haven't seen the cards, but I would have intuitively guessed that Pin could be ripped but not Slow or Repel. Given how inferior they are to Pin otherwise I figured that would be their redeeming value.
Feldor
Adept
I think when we consider a Mend Armor spell, we easily fall into the trap of thinking of it like it was healing. We let anyone buy a 3-4 point ability that lets them infinitely repair armor at no cost in-game with 1 minute of concentration; in chunks of up to 40 (soon to be up to 62) at once. We have nothing even vaguely equivalent to that in healing. Our biggest healing spell requires a significant investment and only heals at most 45, compared to the infinite use blacksmith's skill repairing 62. Given this context, expecting a "mend armor" spell to follow the same scaling as healing spells seems weird - we treat armor different than we treat health.
Ko the Wizard
Newbie
Feldor, you highlighter something I was struggling to convey.
Thanks for the insight.
Thanks for the insight.
Draven
Count
(Our biggest heal spell heals at most 300.)
Feldor
Adept
Life Leech is a necromantic ritual that heals at most 200, when used with another high point skill. Though I suppose there is a loophole in the wording of that ritual that it caps at 200 when used with terminate/doomblow, but technically its uncapped healing when used with slay/assassinate. Which suggests a 50th level rogue could do assassinate+life_leech for 400+ damage & healing. However, I'd argue this not a heal spell.
Samyania
Scholar
Pretty much the thing I liked least about Mend Armor, in previous playtests, was what @Feldor pointed out, that it's essentially Celestial healing, which primarily annoys me because of the whole other argument about Earth magic being for heals and Celestial magic being for hurts and each needing to stay in their lane unless we're talking Necromancy. Taking Death out of Life, so, reducing our ability to hurt things viably, and then giving Celestial a healing spell, is especially kind of insulting in that regard.
Draven
Count
It’s not really a healing spell. It’s certainly a support spell, but C Casters already have those in the form of Protection, they have debuff removal in the form of Dispel, they have Enhancements in the form of Enhanced/Elemental Blade.
Mend Armor won’t stabilize anyone, it won’t help against Body/Chaos damage, and it sorta replaces an effect that C already had (if rarely used), which was the Shield Spell.
I don’t object to C Casters having some support viability, because Support choices of Celestial magic is pretty important too, IMO.
Mend Armor won’t stabilize anyone, it won’t help against Body/Chaos damage, and it sorta replaces an effect that C already had (if rarely used), which was the Shield Spell.
I don’t object to C Casters having some support viability, because Support choices of Celestial magic is pretty important too, IMO.
Ko the Wizard
Newbie
I think Feldor was pointing out that Mend Armor is NOT healing despite being considered as such.
There are many ways to get around a suit of "refitted armor" which is what I suggest Mend Armor spell effectively becomes.
Shatter, Body, Chaos, Spells strikes, Takeouts...the list goes on. The only way Mend Armor is like healing is if you relegate yourself to thinking of the situation in the context of attempting to beat the tank into the ground.
There are many ways to get around a suit of "refitted armor" which is what I suggest Mend Armor spell effectively becomes.
Shatter, Body, Chaos, Spells strikes, Takeouts...the list goes on. The only way Mend Armor is like healing is if you relegate yourself to thinking of the situation in the context of attempting to beat the tank into the ground.
Bruvah M.
Newbie
Perhaps Mend Armor could be cast to reduce armor refit time? I understand it’s not what was originally intended for the spell, which was supposed to be a quick way to restore a little armor. But easily shaving off 30 seconds or so might be worth the cost of a second level spell.