MWEs and Sleep

Wraith said:
Ondreij said:
Gilwing said:
So the same would apply for Prison and web? Because by choice my character would not want that on them.
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No - because PRISON and WEB are physical effects and do not effect the MIND and the WILL, but affect the BODY. It's subtle, but so are MWEs. And, besides that, it's how I choose to play the role.
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Locking someone in a cage is a purely physical effect as well, yet you'd have one hell of a time talking any Mystic into putting up with it.
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That's not the question you asked.
 
So, in your (or your character's) opinion, a MWE can find putting a "person" (as opposed to a non-person or enemy) in shackles and telling them, oh, I dunno, "rub my feet or I kill you" as acceptable... I mean, they're not taking away free will, they're just offering the sap the choice of doing what they want or being killed. But chucking a love gas at that Ross and Rachel, that's just bad mojo.

Yeah, complicated.
 
jpariury said:
So, in your (or your character's) opinion, a MWE can find putting a "person" (as opposed to a non-person or enemy) in shackles and telling them, oh, I dunno, "rub my feet or I kill you" as acceptable... I mean, they're not taking away free will, they're just offering the sap the choice of doing what they want or being killed. But chucking a love gas at that Ross and Rachel, that's just bad mojo.

Yeah, complicated.
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Did I say THAT? I don't THINK I said that? Or are you putting words in my mouth/my character's mouth?
 
oh egads, leave his character alone. his Mystic has developed an internal sense of morals just like any other character, no reason to razz him 'bout it. if you want a fight: rustle up your character, go find his character, and bother him In Game. but, ¿what's the point of doing it in an OOG forum? Mystics have carte blance to decide what "Free Will" is and how/where it's removed. if you don't like THAT, write a thread about Mystics and their Vision of Free Will, don't snipe at Ondreij
 
Mobius said:
oh egads, leave his character alone. his Mystic has developed an internal sense of morals just like any other character, no reason to razz him 'bout it. if you want a fight: rustle up your character, go find his character, and bother him In Game. but, ¿what's the point of doing it in an OOG forum? Mystics have carte blance to decide what "Free Will" is and how/where it's removed. if you don't like THAT, write a thread about Mystics and their Vision of Free Will, don't snipe at Ondreij
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Thank you. Couldn't have said it better myself. In fact, I was thinking about saying something like "why not get on an airplane and fly out so we can discuss this in game". Instead, I thought it would be more fun to be a little obstinant and a lot obtuse. Once again, well said and thank you for saying it.
 
Ondreij said:
Did I say THAT? I don't THINK I said that? Or are you putting words in my mouth/my character's mouth?
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Doh, meant to put question marks on the end of those two sentences, though I think you got far more riled than warranted. Heaven forfend that I might think "outloud", as it were. I also suspect you're personalizing it a mite much, since, if you just want to discuss the character, we're not talking about you, we're talking a fictional character and it's opinions. It seems an awful like someone going "You know, based on what I heard about New Avengers #7, Dr. Strange seems to have given up on the whole 'I only deal with otherworldly matters concerning the Earth' thing and is all about interfering with everybody's lives in the mortal realm." and then Steve Ditko jumpin' all up and down and stomping his feet because people are "putting words in the character's mouth".

Mobius said:
what's the point of doing it in an OOG forum?
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Because it's an OOG thought, not an IG one. Having never met such his character, much less interacted with it, it would seem the height of metagaming to fly out somewhere to pick an IG fight with someone just for the purposes of satisfying an OOG curiosity, and besides which, this isn't a schoolyard, and we don't need to have Whisper and Odreij meet behind the lunchroom after class. My original thought was about the player's opinion as it applies to the "no slavery" rules (suggestions?) for MWEs, though I included the "or your character" bit to hopefully skip over the whole "oh no, my opinion on what counts as slavery and my character's a totally different" defense that might come up. OOG discussion about characters is fun, because it is interesting to see what other people find fun and valid to play and how they like to play it. It expands the number of variations I might consider for my own characters.

The idea that Sleep should be bad mojo in terms of free will because it "affects the mind" but Web or Prison don't is worth exploring in an OOG conversation in which the topic is what MWEs might deem valid will-impacting actions, imo. The natural extension of "no, no web is entirely physical, so it's kosher" is that if physical hindrances and threats are acceptable, than what we in the real world deem as slavery has little to no bearing on what slavery means in the game, either in general or to MWEs specifically.
 
JP

Prison lasts 10 mins... a jail can last forever? :D

Its just a thought. I see your point, I had a PC that went down that avenue and he got to the point where he simply wouldnt cast any binding effects at all, and he was getting to the point where he was considering wether there was a problem with evocation...(cuz after all, if I turn you into a pile of slagg, arn't I taking away your free will?)

Almost any argument, point, etc, taken to the extreme, eventually breaks down.

I could make a case for disarm being imposing my will on someone else. I kinda think thats a bit much... but you could make the argument.

2 cents...in

Paul
These are not the views of Chicago Staff etc, etc, add legalese. :)
 
I hear ya, Paul. I kind of had in my mind's eye the idea of a MWE sitting off in the woods somewhere, refusing to do anything, because he didn't want to impose. ;)

(Prison effects can last forever. Just give me the right components and scrolls, and we'll discuss it. ;) )
 
I'd kill you for wasting a perm :)

oh and for taking someones free will. :p
 
Mobius said:
it's all about the target not the action. if you kill a bug, it's pest-control not murder; if you kill a human, it's murder not pest-control. Mystics don't like controlling "people", so long as you're not controlling "people" it's all good.
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I would have to disagree with you on one point, i play a MWE and she respects are things will's bug, townsman, beast trying to kill you or not... she sees controlling anythings will as cheating so to say, in all fairness she wants to win live walk a way, but feels controlling magic make even a good persons actions for good rezones apparently bad...

She even dislikes but dus not ban awakens being used on her however with a distaste allow friends to use them to say counter act vampire charm in front of her or use an awaken to wake some one who is been sleep gassed so the party survives... she carry awakens as potions even... disliking something and understanding its use is one way a round being morally apposed to something but forced to deal with it at every event...

But sleep there is something dissimulator completely.... i can see how some MEW might let it slide because its not forcing you to say attack your friends harm your self take evil acts or betray your beliefs systems... however sleep spells are the date **** drug of the gaming world. forcing some one to go to dream land wile you killing blow them is cheep and just wrong...

In her eyes the only even slightly ok time to use a sleep spell is if a friend is under a will controlling spell to make them case harm to others, and then and only then will she admit to it being an "ok" with the use of a sleep spell, not that she will ever cast it, but if some one she is with can... and did...
 
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