My LOVE/HATE Relationship with Shields and learning to fight

[RuneBrighteyes]

Re: My LOVE/HATE Relationship with Shields and learning to f

Again, "turtling" is specifically against the rules. To engage in such behavior is cheating, and players who do this should have the behavior addressed by their local marshal. If you are concerned that newer fighters will excel in combat with a shield and become complacent because through the act of turtling they are unable to be struck, then these players are not successful because shields are overpowered, they are successful because they are cheating. I do not feel that this concern should lend itself to denouncing shields to entry level fighters.

My thoughts on turtling are not why I delay teaching people shield. They are both just thoughts about shield.

As for the value of delaying shield training I am just sharing what has worked for me in the past (and what I will continue to recommend in the future). That being said I would suggest that ANYONE who wants to improve their fighting should tool around with one sword- ideally in their off hand. Make that work and then everything else gets real easy.

 

[Gilwing]

Re: My LOVE/HATE Relationship with Shields and learning to f

I believe that a person should use what they want to use. If they see themselves as Boromir with a shield, help them do it right. The trouble is what is considered 'turtling'. Here's what it says in the rulebook:

Turtling: Crouching down and hiding behind a shield so that no legal targets are available for your opponent to hit. This is not allowed. Do not do this.

To me, this means finding yourself a place where your opponent cannot flank you, bending at the knees, putting the bottom of the shield on the ground and just having your head popped out around it, with your arm flying out to swing every so often.

Someone standing up, shield out, tilted and so on is just the correct way to use one. As other's have mentioned, there's other ways around it, with spells and alchemy packets being the foremost, but it's all about fighting style. If my sides and back are open while I use a shield, no matter what is being offered in front of me, I don't feel I'm turtling. Of course, Rules Marshals may vary.

Wow...mark this down. Is this the first time you and I are in agreement? Lol :funny: I couldn't agree more with you.

“Turtling” or hiding behind an impenetrable
shield (with little more than your head
showing) is not allowed. The moves that in real
life would be used to neutralize a “Turtle” are
against the rules, so Turtling is also banned.

There is no way that my fighting style is "impenetrable". Should every BBG that runs behind there 40+ npc be considered for trutling? I can't get to them unless I throw packets high over peoples heads, resulting in head shots. Does every person with a staff, polearm or 2HW turtle because they use there length to keep there enemy away? No, these are just good fighting styles. All which can be counteracted by good team work.

 

[Gilwing]

Re: My LOVE/HATE Relationship with Shields and learning to f

Why crouch when you can turtle by standing. Remember also that turtling has no concessions for being able to surround your foe.

As for encouraging people to avoid picking up shield too soon I do this when people want me to teach them how to fight. I still believe that delaying using this AMAZING style for as long as possible will make you a better fighter overall- especially if and when you do pick up the shield for use. I have found that the people that I have worked worth are pretty skilled AND flexible. Your individual mileage may vary.

Realize that I get that I am way in the minority here. I also suggest people go out and use just one weapon (usually longsword) for as long as possible as well.

Hey Ray....I agree with you buddy. I understand what you are saying, but I will never get rid of my shield event if the build cost keeps going up. I'm "stuck in my ways".

I'll let you in on a little secret Ray, I suck with out a shield (or a 2hw) and I consider my self a good fighter. Been using a shield so long that when I dual wield my shield hand does nothing. That weapon just sits there, pointed down like a fool.

 

[OrcFighterFTW]

Re: My LOVE/HATE Relationship with Shields and learning to f

As the Head New Player Marshal of the SoMN chapter for the last two years (no longer this year), the first question I always ask new players is "What is FUN for you?" For combat with new players, I practice fight with multiple styles and then let the player choose and help them build a new PC around that style. Any combat style can be effective. Put it all on the table and let the new player sort it out. It's all about what is fun for the new player, not the biased views of others.

 

[AllianceCHI]

Re: My LOVE/HATE Relationship with Shields and learning to f

Sure Peter that's not what Ray is saying...

The point I think he is making is that it makes you a much better fighter much faster to practice something you aren't 100% effective. I tend to agree. I learned 2 short swords, and short-sword spear as my two characters before ever grabbing a longsword or a shield and I think I'm a fairly good fighter and better for it.

I would strongly recommend you get decent with a PVC longsword than open up with a UL longsword...My first weekend with one was like playing on easy mode.

Paul

 

[KyleSchmelz]

Re: My LOVE/HATE Relationship with Shields and learning to f

I don't think fighting with a shield is going to make you a bad fighter or make you incapable of learning other fighting styles, but I do think it's easier to jump from either one weapon or two weapons to shield than it is to go from using a shield to using any other style. You learn to block mostly passively with a shield and it's hard to get used to active blocking with two weapons, much less being aggressive with the off-hand weapon. If you want to be a really good fighter with all weapon styles as quickly as you can, I'd say start with one weapon, then two, then shield, and throw in a 2-hander at whatever point you want. It really doesn't make much of a difference in the long run as long as someone is open to learning new things.

And like Paul said, PVC is a great way to practice. I fought with a PVC longsword for my first three years at NERO and I think I'm better for it even though I use lighter weapons now, especially since I'm fighting with blunts for my current character. If I had to go from just UL longswords to light-ish long blunts, it probably would have been harder.

 

[evi1r0n]

Re: My LOVE/HATE Relationship with Shields and learning to f

I think fighting in all styles makes you a better fighter.

On the topic of "turtling" I think this term is used to liberally. Even in the proposed situation in the book, I still have a lot of area to strike you that is legal. It's about learning to fight around shields. Calling turtling every time someone uses their shied effectively isn't going to fix the perceived problem. I had a lot of trouble fighting shield fighters in the beginning, now no problem. But that took practice, like any sport. The only people with shields that feel "impossible to hit" are those who are already amazing fighters on an OOG level.

 

[Simon]

Re: My LOVE/HATE Relationship with Shields and learning to f

Ray,
I have seen places define they shield style you describe as turtling because people shared your view.

Oh, i started two weapon...went shrt spear and ended up shield. there is a joy to two weapon fighting that shield fighting rarely gives me...and moving my shield around with movement techniques learned fighting two weapon holds me in very good stead.

I do give some credence to those who say the easier style allows you to hook a player into the game however. but for npc's especially when you cannot always choose your style, some manner of proficiency with two weapons is a must...just like learning how not to charge with a short sword.

Joe S.

 

[Draven]

Re: My LOVE/HATE Relationship with Shields and learning to f

And like Paul said, PVC is a great way to practice. I fought with a PVC longsword for my first three years at NERO and I think I'm better for it even though I use lighter weapons now, especially since I'm fighting with blunts for my current character. If I had to go from just UL longswords to light-ish long blunts, it probably would have been harder.

I remember hauling around a PVC bastard sword at my first few LARPs. God, did my wrist hurt by the end of that first game.

 

[Talen]

Re: My LOVE/HATE Relationship with Shields and learning to f

And like Paul said, PVC is a great way to practice. I fought with a PVC longsword for my first three years at NERO and I think I'm better for it even though I use lighter weapons now, especially since I'm fighting with blunts for my current character. If I had to go from just UL longswords to light-ish long blunts, it probably would have been harder.

I remember hauling around a PVC bastard sword at my first few LARPs. God, did my wrist hurt by the end of that first game.

There are games out there that ban UL's completely. I've always been of the opinion that if you need a UL to fight with, you shouldn't even be exposing your arm/wrist to regular weapon strikes to begin with due to it's fragility. On the other hand, there's a wide variety in how much weight/balance PVC boffers have. A well-made one is quite comfortable to use and reasonable in it's weight...but a UL is a whipping wand by comparison. Even to latex.

 

[Tevas]

Re: My LOVE/HATE Relationship with Shields and learning to f

There are games out there that ban UL's completely. I've always been of the opinion that if you need a UL to fight with, you shouldn't even be exposing your arm/wrist to regular weapon strikes to begin with due to it's fragility. On the other hand, there's a wide variety in how much weight/balance PVC boffers have. A well-made one is quite comfortable to use and reasonable in it's weight...but a UL is a whipping wand by comparison. Even to latex.

Straining your wrist due to unsuited equipment or poor body mechanics is not the same thing as it being struck with a padded stick.

This thread, however, does not appear to be about the virtues or shortcomings of PVC vs ultralight vs latex. I am sure this subject would receive much more appropriate attention as its own thread.

 

[SkollWolfrun]

Re: My LOVE/HATE Relationship with Shields and learning to f

I have a love/hate relationship with myself fighting with a shield. I find that I am not very good with one...
I started with 2 weapon because I had experience with fencing and then swashbuckle fighting (using a sabre and short epee) in high school.

 

[OrcFighterFTW]

Re: My LOVE/HATE Relationship with Shields and learning to f

I came across this short video on youtube regarding Viking fighting techniques, and it shows how to effectively fight against a shield fighter in a way that would be theoretically safe for our game, specifically 2:10-2:22 (although be careful of charging). The key: Side steps. I thought it was related to this topic enough to not start another thread about shields.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFiIDl_mt2c[/youtube]

 

[Tevas]

Re: My LOVE/HATE Relationship with Shields and learning to f

I came across this short video on youtube regarding Viking fighting techniques, and it shows how to effectively fight against a shield fighter in a way that would be theoretically safe for our game, specifically 2:10-2:22 (although be careful of charging). The key: Side steps.

This ^

This also speaks to a lack of footwork and lateral motion in combat. Utilizing these areas along with wraps, fakes, baits, counters and a variety of other resources, fighters can easily land blows on a boardsman who only appears to have their head available. Being stuck in a linear fight against a shield is what the boardsman wants.

Reinforces this ^