Nero name change and what it means for Seattle

S

Seattle_Dave

Virtuoso
Youi may have noticed that the announcement was saying that the west coast chapters are looking at starting our own campaign. Alliance Seattle is, in fact, looking to do that. However, there are many things to be considered in such an endeavor. Logistics, treasure policy, WCARC representation, ownership symposiums, etc.

I would say that the west coast is not 100% through with our talking with each other. There is a feeling that one of the things people really like is the fact that this is a national game. People can travel to the east coast and play there if they so desire (and we even have a couple of people who are in College on the East Coast who have their home bases in Portland and Seattle). It is very possible that we will end up with an amalgam of Fortanis and non-Fortanis games going for each chapter (which would end up with my logistics team wanting to lynch me, I am sure).

The transfer agreement we are working on right now is mainly concerned with treasure policy and with experience, ensuring that the characters are not going to be bringing across disparate numbers of magic items or build. It is pinned to the Fortanis standard and changes as the Fortanis standard changes. Of course, there is also a requirement to keep an updated and published addendum to the rules as well as a list of local variations.

It is not our intention to diverge wildly from the rulebook. People know this game and we want to play this game. If we wanted to play a different game, there would be no reason for us to remain within the Alliance. It is our goal to allow for more local (and regional) game flavor variance, more local decisions and discussion of rules and rules issues,

It is my hope that a few of the chapters in other parts of the country would be open to discussing this matter with us and joining on the transfer agreement to continue to allow those who enjoy the national aspect of the game to travel should they so desire.

I urge you all to comment, question, and ponder. Please, let us know what you think. We run this game for your enjoyment as much as our own so please - what do you want to know?
 
Well, I should really read the other notice first :) but right of the top of my head, I like the idea that the Seattle Game could have more control of it's own rules, storylines, and so forth (i don't know that that's even a possibility, but I like the idea); it's always bothered me that plotlines were, at least in part, mandated and/or controlled by rules in a book that people a thousand miles away wrote; my whole life in roleplaying games has been supported and guided by one unwavering rule above all else: the Storyteller makes the rules. Letting someone who isn't even involved in the game dictate what plots can and can't be run, or what creative choices can and can't be enacted upon, is something i could never deal with as a plot member (one more reason why i'm thankful to just be a player). Thankfully, there are those who can deal with that, and make a very enjoyable game nonetheless, and I'm grateful.

The only other thing I can think of right off the bat is that I think I would enjoy the game even more, and from talking to other players and staff,so would many others, if the game had more freedoms to it, like Religion (as an example); while I understand the intention behind the core rules, I personally enjoyed the Pantheon of gods aspects that Dungeons and Dragons has (and if there were a live action D and D game, I'd almost certainly be interested in it). Anyway, there's my two cents, please don't take anything offensively as it's all meant in good faith, and any criticism is intended to be constructive, and not negative.


Dave;20591 said:
Youi may have noticed that the announcement was saying that the west coast chapters are looking at starting our own campaign. Alliance Seattle is, in fact, looking to do that. However, there are many things to be considered in such an endeavor. Logistics, treasure policy, WCARC representation, ownership symposiums, etc.

I would say that the west coast is not 100% through with our talking with each other. There is a feeling that one of the things people really like is the fact that this is a national game. People can travel to the east coast and play there if they so desire (and we even have a couple of people who are in College on the East Coast who have their home bases in Portland and Seattle). It is very possible that we will end up with an amalgam of Fortanis and non-Fortanis games going for each chapter (which would end up with my logistics team wanting to lynch me, I am sure).

The transfer agreement we are working on right now is mainly concerned with treasure policy and with experience, ensuring that the characters are not going to be bringing across disparate numbers of magic items or build. It is pinned to the Fortanis standard and changes as the Fortanis standard changes. Of course, there is also a requirement to keep an updated and published addendum to the rules as well as a list of local variations.

It is not our intention to diverge wildly from the rulebook. People know this game and we want to play this game. If we wanted to play a different game, there would be no reason for us to remain within the Alliance. It is our goal to allow for more local (and regional) game flavor variance, more local decisions and discussion of rules and rules issues,

It is my hope that a few of the chapters in other parts of the country would be open to discussing this matter with us and joining on the transfer agreement to continue to allow those who enjoy the national aspect of the game to travel should they so desire.

I urge you all to comment, question, and ponder. Please, let us know what you think. We run this game for your enjoyment as much as our own so please - what do you want to know?
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The new contracts are in process now. Once they are done, the domain will have to be changed. Our new domain name is already reserved, and we expect the new contracts will be out very soon. I expect our domain will change within the next week or so, and there will be warning given before the forums, etc., change over.
 
I think most of the people who would have made a bigger deal out of it (because it affects them more, because they're on staff, whatever) already knew before you made the public announcement. And if those people knew, then a handful of their friends probably knew. Chances are, this is old information to most people.

Mike V said the same thing on the alliance board about the lack of comments. I think the information was more widespread on a national level, too. It's not like nobody saw a change coming, the lawsuit hasn't been going as planned for over a year.
 
I also think people are waiting to find out what all is gonna happen with the WC chapters for sure, and just how big the changes will be before going off about it. My biggest fear is a mass attack by Tickle me Emo when people don't get their rules changes pushed through in the first round of things. I just want to make sure to tell people that even if the WC chapters opt not to run a Fortanis campaign and start implementing new rules variants these games are still ultimately owned by Dave, Cymryc, and Mike. It will be totally their calls as to what gets in and what does not into their respective chapters, so even if you've had "this awesome idea that I always thought Nero should do but they never would and now we can" they may not agree with you at this time and may not want to implement you're idea into their rules system. I know these guys well enough to say that they are not going to turn into megalomaniacs (at least no worse than now *grin*) and only take suggestions and ideas from their nearest and dearest friends. BUT, there are a lot of ideas out there that have been talked about and even played around with down through the years and they don't work as well as they look like they should on paper, so it's entirely possible that your radical new idea has already been thought of, shot full of holes, and rejected as being more trouble than it's worth to the game in general.

So, what I'm saying is, by all means get the ideas flowing and get em ready for submission should one or all of the WC chapters decide not to continue with the national Fortanis campaign, but remember that the plot staff and ownership of the individual chapters are putting in their time, money, and love into telling a story they want to tell, and we as players are there to experience these tales, so let's let em tell them how they want without taking it as a personal attack if they don't do it exactly the way you would do it if you were running things.
 
My feeling overall is that if we want to change to a more local game, then there are better rulesets out there. Changing to a different set of game mechanics is minor in terms of the game world and so on, and with good plot, can advance characters further along their individual paths. If, on the other hand, we want to be a part of a truly national game, then we need to make sure all of the chapters across the nation are playing the same game, which means identical rules for what characters can and cannot do.

If the feeling is that the NERO ruleset is fine, then I don't see much reason to split with the majority of the EC. If the feeling is that the NERO ruleset is too oppressive or broken, then we need to go shopping for a new game. Ideas of "Well, it's cool, but we just need to fix this little bit here, and this smidge over there, oh and can we add this?" are what led to the current rule system as it is.
 
I don't think it's that people feel the NERO ruleset is oppressive or broken, it's that communication with the EC and those that govern the interpretation of the rules as written is oppressive and broken.

I think people like the NERO rules... I think they don't like being treated like red-headed step-children.
 
I agree with JP.

My other thoughts about it would be this:

And having the National aspect of the game is rather appealing, being able to travel throughout the country and hook up with a chapter with a simple character transfer, you do not have to start over, your magic items transfer in, etc.

What would be the point of changing rules and rule sets on a local level if they are that bad, wouldn't another game be better instead?

What about rules changes and play testing? Would there be a West Coast Rules Committee, similar to the ARC? Who would choose its members? How often would rules changes take effect? How would ideas/changes be submitted for appraisal? What would happen to our characters should it be decided to go back to the Fortannis campaign after leaving it for a year? Two years? Would that time be lost? What is the reasoning, specifically, behind going to a non-Fortannis campaign? Is it that the rules are prohibitive to the story that is trying to be told? I was under the impression that Plot could do pretty much whatever they wanted anyway, at least on a local level.

And I'm rambling. I do that sometimes.

I guess what I am asking is: What are the advantages and disadvantages for choosing to break away from the "national" campaign? Will Oregon and San Fran follow suit? If Oregon does not, will OR characters be allowed in Seattle games, and Seattle characters allowed in OR events/games?

I am still trying to digest what it all means, really.

Bur.
 
Sarah;20609 said:
I don't think it's that people feel the NERO ruleset is oppressive or broken, it's that communication with the EC and those that govern the interpretation of the rules as written is oppressive and broken.

I think people like the NERO rules... I think they don't like being treated like red-headed step-children.
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If the rules are fine, and it's the communication that's broken, what is the reasoning behind going with a "non-Fortannis" campaign? Is it so that the "spirit" of the rules can be more readily applied on a local level? And if it is only that, then I ask again: what is the reason for differing, and what would change?

We already do things a little differently out here, we have for years. I am simply trying to understand the reasoning behind it all, and ask questions as they come to mind. =)
 
IMO, the reason for splitting would be just that... application of rules as written. Unless TPTB get crazy with it, not much would change. It would simply be an establishment of autonomy from a rules committee/power structure we don't even have representation on... and not for lack of trying.

It's also entirely possible to run two campaigns; One Fortannis and one non-Fortannis.
 
Things I think would change -

Game flavor - Currently the rules do restrict several aspects of theplot. There can beno recognition of the religion that is in the game (The Fae, the fact that Barbarians are a shamanic, totemic people. Heck the last event broke the rules in that the Barbarians even *had* a shaman). There are also restrictions on: racial variance (sea elves, Sarr who can bop people on the back of the head, etc.), the use of chaos magic (right now any player caught using chaos *must* take a death or the chapter is in trouble), the formation of artifact items, and several others. It is these things which I think should be more in the control of local chapters, and not at the whim of the alliance. Thing is? Any changes to any of those things would mean we would be outside of Fortanis campaign immediately.

Rules interpretation - We already know the West Coast looks at the rules differently. We have no one on ARC, we discuss things locally and make decisions based on the information at hand only to have those overturned as soon as the East Coast hears of them. My goal would be to have a west coast ARC represented by the heads of rules for each chapter within the campaign.

As I said before, I really want to have each chapter on the west coast on board for this. Right now, things are still up in the air on that. I urgeyou to contact myself through PM, online messenger, email, phone, whateverand let me know which wayyou want to go. Consider me your representative. I can't be effective if I don't know what my constituency wants.
 
Yeah one thing I would love to see is an Evil plot or one where evil PC's can survive without having to be to secretive or biding.
 
Dave;20613 said:
Things I think would change -

Game flavor - Currently the rules do restrict several aspects of theplot. There can beno recognition of the religion that is in the game (The Fae, the fact that Barbarians are a shamanic, totemic people. Heck the last event broke the rules in that the Barbarians even *had* a shaman). There are also restrictions on: racial variance (sea elves, Sarr who can bop people on the back of the head, etc.), the use of chaos magic (right now any player caught using chaos *must* take a death or the chapter is in trouble), the formation of artifact items, and several others. It is these things which I think should be more in the control of local chapters, and not at the whim of the alliance. Thing is? Any changes to any of those things would mean we would be outside of Fortanis campaign immediately.
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This right here is more than enough to make me nod my head emphatically and support this chapter; and this is just my opinion, but I'll publicly give my vote right here and now: If changing these things would put us out of a Fortanis Campaign, GOOD. I'd SO much rather be able to have religion, less restrictions on racial variance, the ability to use chaos magic, or have greater options at creating (or finding) magical weapons and such. If this game could feel more like D and D (in the dynamics of the game world) and less like a D and D cousin, I'd be overjoyed. And honestly, I think the greater freedoms in the game would quickly show in the roleplaying and character development of the PC's, and that's a reward worth working towards.
 
jpariury;20637 said:
You can have a shaman without having a religion, inasmuch as you can have spirits, sorcery, and mystical healing without having a religion.
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Ah, but can you really? When you believe in the supernatural, hell, when you put faith or belief in ANYTHING, doesn't that make it a religion? especially when you're talking about spirits, sorcery, and mystical healing?
 
Since a Shaman is, in fact, areal world religious leader, it breaks the rules just as much as having a ritual which has aspects of Wicca, or having crosses. I use it more to illustrate that noone even skipped a beat and accepted it as OK than anything else.
 
Cerulean Jax;20640 said:
Ah, but can you really? When you believe in the supernatural, hell, when you put faith or belief in ANYTHING, doesn't that make it a religion? especially when you're talking about spirits, sorcery, and mystical healing?
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That's a question I used to deal with pretty much daily on the GiveUpAlready forums where I moderated the Religion forums and later admin'ed the whole shebang for a while before my attentions were directed elsewhere.

A belief is not a religion, or even necessarily a sign of a religion. I believe vanilla to be the finest of the flavors. I am fairly certain that it will remain so over time. Definitions and measurables for what that means are pretty subjective and, to an extent, arbitrary. This does not make it a religion, mean that I am religious, or even a Bare Naked Ladies fan (bonus points for knowing the citation... Bryan can't play). Likewise, believing that "necromancy" is evil is not a religion, per se.

Similiarly, being superstitious, or even having supernatural elements, in a game does not immediately mean "religion" or even "religious". Not everybody who rubs a rabbit's foot, hangs up a horseshoe, or burns incense is a pagan, and not every invocation of beings from beyond is a prayer.

Dave said:
Since a Shaman is, in fact, areal world religious leader, it breaks the rules just as much as having a ritual which has aspects of Wicca, or having crosses. I use it more to illustrate that noone even skipped a beat and accepted it as OK than anything else.
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I recommend checking the definitions I linked. Only one out of the four offered ever invoked religion, and when it did, it was clear that the barbarians were not that. As reported, the use of the word shaman does not imply religion. Not every brazier used at the game is for offering burnt sacrifices, not every pentagram is the Horned God, and not every Eye of Horus is drawn to let him measure your soul. Sometimes, they're just words and pictures.
 
I agree with you in principle, JP, butI would also say that the perception is what is key. It wasn't an actual Wiccan ceremony which caused the no religion fervor, it was elements of one. Words and motions used in such a way as to invoke a feeling of ritual which were not connectedto Wicca in any way through the ritual itself still caused the rules to change.

The use of a Shaman asa spiritual leader for the tribe (which he was presented as) makes for a clear implication that it is being tied to the Shamanic cultures of real world tribes - they're religion was borrowed from, however slightly.
 
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