KyleSchmelz
Elite
Wearing armor and using arcane armor are both working solutions under the current rules.
On Armor
- Thread starter Muir
- Start date
KyleSchmelz
Elite
Right, but looking for a "working solution under the current rules" makes it sound like the current system is so broken you need to find some sort of work-around, when really it just comes down to physical or arcane. I was just being snarky, see my first post for a more useful response.
Jayded
Novice
I actually love my armor. It's admittedly not plate or metal as I play a dryad, but I made it myself. It's obviously hand stitched as my character likes to make things but I like to play her as not knowing how to do so well. It has embroidery on it. It cost me 20 dollars and two days of work to make it. Basic armor, even masterwork, can be obtained. Now I'm replacing pieces that don't work as well as I want. For me, the part of the rules that bothers me is that if I add pieces, I don't want to have to spend that much IC, because I'll need to buy a new tag. It would be really nice to have a way to trade in old armor tags and pay the difference. That said, even if I get AA once I get the money or skill IC orv the goblin stamps, there are parts I'll still wear because it's just that much a part of my character.
kalindra
Specialist
The problem with revising armor ratings seems to be finding a way to reward players for investing in nice/heavy/attractive/in-period armor reps without simultaneously appearing to punish players who don't have the money/time/skill/stamina/[insert resource here] to own and wear real armor. Having armor is crucial to survivability especially in chapters that don't have abundant healing, and having armor be dependent on build somehow would just increase the effects of the level gap, IMO. For these reasons I'd personally be hesitant to revamp the armor system too much... On the one hand, you have "man, the armor system is too harsh, you need to spend $200 just to be useful as a fighter and I can barely afford event fees." On the other hand there's "man, the armor system is too lax, why should I bother wearing my nice-looking expensive plate armor when that guy is wearing cheap fake plastic armor and gets the same armor points?" It needs to be worth it for the second guy to wear his authentic stuff without screwing over the first guy.
I could totally get behind a system that lets you combine/separate armor elements, though, despite the extra logistics work that would be. That way you could decide you don't want to wear your helmet and lend it to someone else for a few hours, without having to get 2 new tags.
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To answer the original question, my dryad rogue (almost adept) wears arcane. My first few events I didn't wear any armor because as a tiny person I look ridiculous in armor that's made for regular-size people. (Later I joined a guild that had extra AA lying around for me to use.)
My human fighter has steel scale maille that KyleSchmelz made, and since it was made to fit me it looks cool instead of silly. I also have leather bracers and greaves.
I could totally get behind a system that lets you combine/separate armor elements, though, despite the extra logistics work that would be. That way you could decide you don't want to wear your helmet and lend it to someone else for a few hours, without having to get 2 new tags.
[/rant]
To answer the original question, my dryad rogue (almost adept) wears arcane. My first few events I didn't wear any armor because as a tiny person I look ridiculous in armor that's made for regular-size people. (Later I joined a guild that had extra AA lying around for me to use.)
My human fighter has steel scale maille that KyleSchmelz made, and since it was made to fit me it looks cool instead of silly. I also have leather bracers and greaves.
Muir
Elite
Carly, the issue is that absolutely nothing else in our system requires or even suggests that being in-period or 'real' is better than not. We aren't the SCA, or a living history organization. We're not even trying to simulate anything historical. We're a high fantasy game with a vastly larger population of non-human races than humans, at least two different flavors of working magic, and a representative combat system that looks absolutely nothing like a real fight. The basic premise of the game is 'be all you can't be', and the overall game design theory that what's on your character sheet is supposed to be the deciding factor of character power, not OOG fitness and monetary investment.
The weapons are plumbing supplies (or kite supplies). The shields are generally foam and plastic. Neither gets the same grumbling because they are 'unrealistically' light and fast, because being so is safer, easier to use, and has a significant advantage in play despite looking rather silly in comparison. As such, the present armor rules are a standout as something that seems like a good idea, but in practice is impractical enough that players rarely seem to want to engage with them once better options are available. I mean, look at the poll above. Arcane outnumbers all other forms of armor, if we leave out 'just garb' as being the one most likely to be worn -with- AA.
That said, it's looking like my plan here likely involves attaching an AA tag to my old riveted-steel chain hauberk and calling it a day, because the armor is pretty central to the look I want for this character but doesn't qualify for 3 points per thanks to being slightly under 14 gauge.
The weapons are plumbing supplies (or kite supplies). The shields are generally foam and plastic. Neither gets the same grumbling because they are 'unrealistically' light and fast, because being so is safer, easier to use, and has a significant advantage in play despite looking rather silly in comparison. As such, the present armor rules are a standout as something that seems like a good idea, but in practice is impractical enough that players rarely seem to want to engage with them once better options are available. I mean, look at the poll above. Arcane outnumbers all other forms of armor, if we leave out 'just garb' as being the one most likely to be worn -with- AA.
That said, it's looking like my plan here likely involves attaching an AA tag to my old riveted-steel chain hauberk and calling it a day, because the armor is pretty central to the look I want for this character but doesn't qualify for 3 points per thanks to being slightly under 14 gauge.
kalindra
Specialist
I agree that this isn't SCA, which is why people aren't and shouldn't be *required* to wear real steel armor. However, I think armor looks cool, and I think it's awesome when people wear real armor that puts them at a disadvantage due to its weight. So I don't think it's going too far to give people wearing steel 3 pts per location and people wearing aluminum 2 pts per location, because both of them are getting some IG benefit for their phys-rep. Heck, if the aluminum looks awesome, the marshal can give it 3 points anyway if he thinks it looks similar enough to plate (in my experience, however, it is usually visually obvious when armor is made of aluminum).
I'm a big fan of "be all you can't be." I don't think the situation should be such that a first-timer with no OOG money is totally screwed; ideally, they get their 6 points of "costume" armor at the least or borrow an AA from another player and get to feel useful in combat. I just think it's possible to be inclusive and still reward people for good phys-repping.
I'm a big fan of "be all you can't be." I don't think the situation should be such that a first-timer with no OOG money is totally screwed; ideally, they get their 6 points of "costume" armor at the least or borrow an AA from another player and get to feel useful in combat. I just think it's possible to be inclusive and still reward people for good phys-repping.
Muir
Elite
I agree that this isn't SCA, which is why people aren't and shouldn't be *required* to wear real steel armor. However, I think armor looks cool, and I think it's awesome when people wear real armor that puts them at a disadvantage due to its weight. So I don't think it's going too far to give people wearing steel 3 pts per location and people wearing aluminum 2 pts per location, because both of them are getting some IG benefit for their phys-rep. Heck, if the aluminum looks awesome, the marshal can give it 3 points anyway if he thinks it looks similar enough to plate (in my experience, however, it is usually visually obvious when armor is made of aluminum).
I'm a big fan of "be all you can't be." I don't think the situation should be such that a first-timer with no OOG money is totally screwed; ideally, they get their 6 points of "costume" armor at the least or borrow an AA from another player and get to feel useful in combat. I just think it's possible to be inclusive and still reward people for good phys-repping.
Actually, per the rules, they can't. The armor standards are objective, not subjective, aside from masterwork points. There's no way for a marshal to declare aluminum to be 3 point armor without cheating by the letter of the law.
Edit : To elaborate.
Alliance Rulebook said:
As written, there's no leeway on what is and isn't 'heavy metal chain mail 14 gauge AWG or thicker with an inner diameter 5/8" or smaller' or 'heavy metal plate mail 18 gauge or thicker', which are the only materials that rate 3 points per location. Aluminum chain or plate is at best 2 points per location, by definition.
I'm not a huge fan, but it's the rule as written. I'm surprised to hear otherwise from a Rules Marshal. Has there been a change, or am I reading your post incorrectly? If aluminum can be called 3pt armor now, that gives me a lot more options to work with as far as comfort goes.
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Avaran
Exemplar
Not really. The ARB is actually pretty clear on this:
"Note that “Light Metal” is defined as aluminum
or any of its alloys and “Heavy Metal”
is defined as steel, copper, or bronze.
The marshal’s decision as to this distinction is final."
If there is aluminum in the material, I don't see how you can say it is not an alloy, and therefore a "Light Metal" and 2-points per location.
The 3-point location rules are pretty specific too:
"Heavy metal chain mail 14 gauge
American Wire Gauge (AWG) or thicker with
an inner diameter 5/8" or smaller (can vary depending
on gauge), and heavy metal plate mail
18 gauge or thicker."
Knowing what gauge your armor is rated at is the responsibility of the owner; if you don't know, assume you're going to max out at 2-points per location.
If your steel scale isn't at least 14 gauge with an inner diameter of at least 5/8" or smaller, it is 2-points per location; if it meets that criteria, then you get 3-points per location.
KyleSchmelz
Elite
I'm pretty sure she's referring to something where you have mixed materials in one piece. She wears a scalemail shirt that's primarily steel with aluminum trim; I know because I made it. It's not an alloy of the two metals, it's a single piece of armor with multiple materials incorporated. It's reasonable to say that two armor marshals can disagree about whether or not the armor has sufficient steel coverage to be considered 3 point armor without assuming either is doing their job poorly.
Let's take another look at that scalemail - to be clear, it's a series of (primarily) steel scales that are connected by stainless steel split rings (something like 22ga wire IIRC, but directly comparing the gauge of split rings to standard butted rings can be misleading). The individual scales are a little less than 18ga steel, but there's a full layer of overlap at all points. Looking at it as effectively two layers of <18ga steel that adds up to a total thickness greater than a single piece of 18ga, should I consider it 2 points or 3? By the absolute letter of the armor rules it's 2 points because the rules don't make any allowances for overlapping layers, but I can find you several armor marshals, myself included, that would rate it as 3 points. Same goes for leather - I've seen plenty of people that have stacked layers of 8oz leather (nearly full overlap, for a total of 16oz on more than half the location) that ends up getting counted as 2 point armor, but again, by the strict letter of the rules, that's not correct.
There's not a lot of room for interpretation in the material types - obviously aluminum is 2 points and steel of sufficient thickness is 3 - but there's more than enough variety in historical armor (and new styles of fantasy armor) that you can end up with different people rating the same pieces of armor differently.
Let's take another look at that scalemail - to be clear, it's a series of (primarily) steel scales that are connected by stainless steel split rings (something like 22ga wire IIRC, but directly comparing the gauge of split rings to standard butted rings can be misleading). The individual scales are a little less than 18ga steel, but there's a full layer of overlap at all points. Looking at it as effectively two layers of <18ga steel that adds up to a total thickness greater than a single piece of 18ga, should I consider it 2 points or 3? By the absolute letter of the armor rules it's 2 points because the rules don't make any allowances for overlapping layers, but I can find you several armor marshals, myself included, that would rate it as 3 points. Same goes for leather - I've seen plenty of people that have stacked layers of 8oz leather (nearly full overlap, for a total of 16oz on more than half the location) that ends up getting counted as 2 point armor, but again, by the strict letter of the rules, that's not correct.
There's not a lot of room for interpretation in the material types - obviously aluminum is 2 points and steel of sufficient thickness is 3 - but there's more than enough variety in historical armor (and new styles of fantasy armor) that you can end up with different people rating the same pieces of armor differently.
KyleSchmelz
Elite
Getting back somewhat to the original topic, the armor rules also don't do a great job of accounting for riveted maille like Muir mentioned he would wear. It's stronger, usually heavier, and more historically accurate than butted maille, but it often has a lower wire gauge than comparable butted maille. Assuming it's close to 14ga*, I'd personally be willing to stretch the rules slightly and count it as 3-point armor, especially if it's actually the historically accurate style of flat punched rings alternating with wedge-riveted rings.
*I'd check the thickness of your rings against 14ga AWG if you haven't already - there's another gauge system, SWG, that's close but not the same as AWG. 14ga AWG = 16ga SWG - I can't speak for everyone that makes chainmail, but I almost always use SWG when I'm talking about rings and/or wire, so if you're comparing it to 14ga SWG you might be under-valuing your armor.
*I'd check the thickness of your rings against 14ga AWG if you haven't already - there's another gauge system, SWG, that's close but not the same as AWG. 14ga AWG = 16ga SWG - I can't speak for everyone that makes chainmail, but I almost always use SWG when I'm talking about rings and/or wire, so if you're comparing it to 14ga SWG you might be under-valuing your armor.
Draven
Pioneer
I'd like to point out something here.
There's a belief held by some players that people who spend a lot of time and money investing into their armor should receive the benefits of higher armor value.
This, honestly, is an absolute, total fallacy. 100% incorrect, bogus, and wrong.
Why? Because that consideration exists absolutely no where else in the rules. It's inconsistent, and really doesn't fit within the rest of the system.
Imagine if that theory existed elsewhere. Have really cool packets? Your alchemy costs less production points to make, or maybe your sexy sweet latex custom jobbie does +1 damage, or because it looks like it's made out of living flame, you can actually swing for Flame, no ritual required.
Silly, right? But that's -exactly- the same thing. And it has no place in our rules.
There's a belief held by some players that people who spend a lot of time and money investing into their armor should receive the benefits of higher armor value.
This, honestly, is an absolute, total fallacy. 100% incorrect, bogus, and wrong.
Why? Because that consideration exists absolutely no where else in the rules. It's inconsistent, and really doesn't fit within the rest of the system.
Imagine if that theory existed elsewhere. Have really cool packets? Your alchemy costs less production points to make, or maybe your sexy sweet latex custom jobbie does +1 damage, or because it looks like it's made out of living flame, you can actually swing for Flame, no ritual required.
Silly, right? But that's -exactly- the same thing. And it has no place in our rules.
Jayded
Novice
I know that I am, personally, a huge fan of the ten foot rule. If you can't tell at 10 feet that my armor isn't real seude, then I did my job. There are plenty of realistic, awesome, inexpensive armor ideas out there and I hate to see people penalized for not having "real" armor. It tends to breed resentment between the haves and have nots. One of my personal favorite ways to make armor involves making a lightweight leather or suede surcoat or tabard with pockets sewn into it. In the pockets, traditionally, would of been metal plates. For the sake of time and money, as well as weight, I've put hard plastic plates in them. You cannot tell just by looking at it, unless you realize it's not as heavy as it should be. It does not break the IC experience. Yet without the more expensive metal plates, it's not going to be considered armor. We can have latex swords, but what's wrong with realistic looking plastic armor?
norman b
Virtuous
Im not trying to be mean or the BBEG here, but the difference between latex weapons and real armor is about safety. A latex weapon is used instead of a real weapon as the real weapon will cause injury. Using real armor will not cause injury (Usually. If it does, then you are probably not wearing it properly). Comparing latex weapons to real armor is not the same.
Evan's examples are great. I agree that having fancy weapons and packets confer no real ingame benefit besides getting your items back. On the flip side, Plastic does not negate you from getting any benefit at all, it just doesn't give you 3pt armor. Is that fair to those who don't have money/time/resources? Probably not. But you still get benefit from it. Should there be a 3 point equivalent? Maybe. Perhaps a certain thickness of plastic? But until there is a rules revision, plastic is going to be less. Invest that money from plastic armor into quality leather. Or into donations to get AA.
Evan's examples are great. I agree that having fancy weapons and packets confer no real ingame benefit besides getting your items back. On the flip side, Plastic does not negate you from getting any benefit at all, it just doesn't give you 3pt armor. Is that fair to those who don't have money/time/resources? Probably not. But you still get benefit from it. Should there be a 3 point equivalent? Maybe. Perhaps a certain thickness of plastic? But until there is a rules revision, plastic is going to be less. Invest that money from plastic armor into quality leather. Or into donations to get AA.
Jayded
Novice
Hey, IG, I'm a scholar with a full set of maxed out armor. I paid all of 20 dollars for it thanks to my craft coupon addiction and a school break. I'm not concerned about getting more armor for myself, because AA is personally the only way I will manage to pull it off. My concern is that we don't become so elitist that it turns new players off on the game. The last message I want to send to people is "Unless you have excessive amounts of free money or time, you wont be able to play some classes effectively." I happen to empathize with the people who want to play the Fighters and Scouts and Templars because I am in the whole "broke college student" state for at least another two years.. maybe longer depending on my job prospects. I love my job, but I work for a non profit, my rewards are feeling good about myself, not money.
Muir
Elite
Seems to me that comparing latex weapons to armor is pretty much as accurate a comparison as you can get here. Latex weapons are exactly what we should be going for in props, a phys-rep that looks nearly identical to the item it's supposed to be, yet is built with safety features that allow it to be used in combat and weight light enough to allow someone who isn't a trained and conditioned heavy weapons fighter to use it effectively over the duration of a 72 hour event.
Alavatar
Exemplar
A) I don't have numbers, but I qualitatively have heard of more actual Safety incidents related to real plate armor than I have related to latex weapons. (Note: Safety issues, to me, are injuries that take a person out of the game and requires some sort of attention such as rolled ankles (i.e. running in the dark in plate); "stings something fierce" is not a Safety issue to me)
B) Real armor means people have to strike harder for the armor-clad warrior to feel the hit. This can develop hard hitters inadvertently.
C) Real 30+ pt armor (plate specifically) actually is an IG detriment. It limits mobility, speed, and generates much more noise.
To me, the only reason for requiring real armor is to add realism and help the suspension of disbelief. But, I know some really crafty people that can make awesome looking armor that appears real, but is made out of foam, so I am not sure I place much stock in the "adding realism" bit. Additionally, I know some cosplayers that can make some awesome faux fantasy armor that would be awesome to see IG (such as some Warhammer-related gear), but would be too costly or too heavy if made out of real metal.
B) Real armor means people have to strike harder for the armor-clad warrior to feel the hit. This can develop hard hitters inadvertently.
C) Real 30+ pt armor (plate specifically) actually is an IG detriment. It limits mobility, speed, and generates much more noise.
To me, the only reason for requiring real armor is to add realism and help the suspension of disbelief. But, I know some really crafty people that can make awesome looking armor that appears real, but is made out of foam, so I am not sure I place much stock in the "adding realism" bit. Additionally, I know some cosplayers that can make some awesome faux fantasy armor that would be awesome to see IG (such as some Warhammer-related gear), but would be too costly or too heavy if made out of real metal.
Muir
Elite
Alavatar, I'm not really surprised by that. Especially given the speed of our combat and the way players pile up in circle beatings, the chances of someone eating an armored elbow (or an unarmored person being landed on by someone falling down in real steel) are fairly high.
In the end, I think my plan is to go for Arcane and stick it on an armor rep, if only because I don't have to wear a helm to get waylay protection with it.
In the end, I think my plan is to go for Arcane and stick it on an armor rep, if only because I don't have to wear a helm to get waylay protection with it.
Eadar
Adept
A) I've only hurt myself ONCE where I needed a hold that would have most likely been fine had I not been wearing my plate. All other times of hold-level hurt myself, and one other player who wears plate has been totally unrelated to wearing the plate. However, the "Stings something fierce" I can say I've lost track of that happens due to the plate. And all of the stings something fierce is due to something moving weird or being worn incorrectly. Last few events I've adjusted everything and no issues.
B) So far I'm in the quite opposite. I will actually notice some lighter hits more due to the sound the plate makes vs cloth/my crappy sense of feeling hits when I'm in the moment. There is a very distinct "plink" noise.
C) Mobility, Speed, Flexibility, Noise, Endurance, the ability to sit relaxed, time to get into it, bruising if something is worn poorly, added exhaustion due to layers+heat.
This is a HUGE concern for me. I've called 4 holds in the last year because I was concerned about falling over on someone. I've had 3 falls on my own, one where it bruised, two others where it just hurt (course now we know where all of the ruts/holes are...). Armored elbows are rare FYI...but the rest of the stuff can happen if people aren't aware. Mostly, people wearing it are gonna hurt themselves more than anyone else if they're respectful and cautious.
All in all though, over the last year +, there has been easily 25+x more issues from weapon hits, shields to the face, stepping on people, normal elbows/fists, stuff to the eye, trees, bad terrain, etc.
But, BUT, armor looks fantastic. The more costuming that just looks great really adds to the atmosphere of the game - it's difference between "Those people are from the Ren Faire" vs "Those people are in tabbards" vs "Those people look like warriors". It is way harder to larp in plate or other hard armors as opposed to light and/or flexible stuff. There should be some sort of bonus/reward/reason for wearing the stuff over more efficient materials, but really the armor system would need an overhaul that unfortunately would upset one group or another. There should be a real, significant bonus to people making the larp look authentic.