Preemptive Topic Split - GS

markusdark

Knight
Robb Graves said:
.

does it add to level creep? absolutely... but that's not really the topic onf conversation here.
Actually, I do believe it is as GS have a direct, heck an only, purpose to artifically advance your character.

If I had my way... a half dozen people's heads would explode

But seriously folks. :)

I would keep the gobbie system as it is however only allow a player to access those gobbies after attending an event in the chapter where those gobbies are located. So if I donate things to a chapter far away, I have to attend an event at said chapter to be able to apply a gobbie blanket to my character and/or to buy items to use at that chapter (or carry back to my home chapter).

I would also institute a policy of you cannot do a "Pay no play" in a chapter unless you have attended an event at that chapter and you cannot do a second "Pay no play" until after you attend another event.

Truthfully, I'd want more restrictions than these however I feel that these would go a long way to curbing speed leveling unless said player actually attends more events (which, IMO, works great for all involved) and those that truly want to improve any chapter via donations will do so not out of the promise of gobbies but rather because they want to improve the game overall.

I'm from the old school that if your character is to advance, he or she needs to be at the event, taking the risks of everyone else to earn that experience - even if all they do is sit in the corner of the tavern and mumble to themselves. With Pay no play, will that character take a death if, say, the entire town, or even just the group that they normally always adventure with, winds up wiping on a mod?
 

jpariury

Duke
Wraith said:
How is the goblin stamp system as it stands now different from outright selling blankets and items for cash
Because cash is not the only resource that people have to offer or that I have need for.

would you condone taking away the trappings and just posting outright price lists if it ensured cash donations to your chapter?
No, because I do not necessarily want to ensure cash donations, particularly in favor of some of the material or manpower donations needed.
 

RiddickDale

Squire
Moderator
Public Relations Committee
I would say that the vast majority of the Goblin/Dragon Stamps that I have earned over my tenure have been earned by providing my skills and expertise to the games operations. I can count on one hand the times I have sent payment to chapters just for the goblin stamp value. Sure, you could break that down to a $/hour rate and convert to gobbies... but that doesn't always work.

If I can ask... is your suggestion intended to make it harder for people to participate in the reward structure and thus limit the impact on the game? OR is it to explore different ideas to get more cash flowing into the chapters to increase production values?

In short... I respect that you are looking to try to prevent goblin stamp bloat from effecting scaling/game balance. But, I think THIS solution might cause more problems on its own.

Perhaps the better solution would be to find out what rewards people would be happy with that DON'T effect scaling and put them in place. NH has an epic death policy... if you permanently die in a way you aren't happy with, then you can burn 1500 or so goblin stamps to get to come back in as an npc for an hour or two while plot writes up a more epic way for your character to go down... that doesn't change scaling AT ALL.

Stephen
National PR
 

markusdark

Knight
RiddickDale said:
If I can ask... is your suggestion intended to make it harder for people to participate in the reward structure and thus limit the impact on the game? OR is it to explore different ideas to get more cash flowing into the chapters to increase production values?
If I had to choose from those two choices, I would have to choose the former, although I feel that "harder to participate' is a bad choice of words as my suggestions do not stop someone from gaining the rewards - as long as they are enjoying the game for what it is - a Live Action game - and not just as a 'he with the most power/toys wins' game. The lowest level character can be as deeply involved in plots and stories as a high level character (if plot does its job well).

I believe that a person should gain rewards from a game that they participate in. That's it. If they're donating to a game that they've never been to, nor will more than likely ever attend, then they should do so because they WANT to increase those production values for that reason alone, and not to gain an advantage over fellow players in their home chapters.

Note that I am saying this as someone who has donated things to over a half dozen chapters throughout the US with absolutely no thought that I will actually be able to attend games in some of them (I'd like to but I'm being realistic). I have no compunction that those gobbies would basically 'in the mists' forever. I just like the idea of helping to promote the game overall. Hence why I started the other thread asking if people would continue to donate if no gobbies were received.

I also believe that there are other avenues that can be pursued with gobbies that wouldn't help support 'bloat' of the game. Although, being who I am with my viewpoints, an 'epic death' policy isn't all that inviting as it is my viewpoint that PD'ing is something that is extremely rare in the game - but that's another topic that's been on other threads. ;)

Of course this viewpoint could have been developed due to the fact that my next nearest chapter is, and always has been for the last fifteen years a 12+ hour drive from me. But even if other chapters were closer, I would still think that the player should have to at least attend events in those chapters in order to gain the advantages of donations to those chapters.

I guess another question to be asked is - how many chapters receive donations from people who don't attend their events on a semi-regular basis?
 
Our Epic Death policy was used the month we first instituted it, and has been used since then as well. Obviously not every permanent death results in its use, since not everyone has that kind of gobbies to buy " kobold insurance."
 

Beverly Byers

Fighter
Traverse City Staff
I believe that a person should gain rewards from a game that they participate in. That's it. If they're donating to a game that they've never been to, nor will more than likely ever attend, then they should do so because they WANT to increase those production values for that reason alone, and not to gain an advantage over fellow players in their home chapters.
This is a very altruistic point of view and one that I believe in but I know that is not how the world works. Unfortunately people with this view are in the minority. I would love to have people donate to my chapter out of the goodness of their hearts with no thought of rewards for doing so and although I do have a handful of people like that it is unrealistic to think that everyone will. In a time of instant gratificaton and the necessity to get as much for your time, effort, and money as possible, you are always going to have people who want more, faster. So either we severly cut down our player base by saying you can't be that way or we work with every personality to make the best game we can for everyone. To say the system isn't perfect for everyone is to say life isn't fair. You're right but what do you do about it?... Make the best of what you have and move on.
 

Wraith

Newbie
Bev, unfortunately catering to the 'bigger badder faster more' cried also tends to cost you the players who would have donated to make a more immersive game, as live action WoW heroically generally isn't the game they are out to play.
 

RiddickDale

Squire
Moderator
Public Relations Committee
Wraith said:
Bev, unfortunately catering to the 'bigger badder faster more' cried also tends to cost you the players who would have donated to make a more immersive game, as live action WoW heroically generally isn't the game they are out to play.
Again... I will present myself as a counter to your arguement... Along with my entire team and more than a dozen other players that come to mind immediately.

Competitive play does not mean e do NOT want immersion. If all I wanted to do was game competitively I would play CoD online. The immersion is, on some level, why we are all here.

Stephen
 

Dom

Scout
Gettysburg Staff
Oh snap! 1up-ed :funny:
 

Lurin

Duke
Don't believe Togashin, My old character ended up killing just about everyone before they'd let me stop playing him :funny: (really was a cool experience though)
 
As a rep for NH, I will point out that a pretty common complaint seen round these here forums is buying back deaths. The expensive epic death policy has pulled over 10000 (yes, 4 zeroes) gobbies in from people who essentially said, "I would rather have an awesome story ending than have the story go on forever." Giving people that option has so far been universally good for our game, providing an entirely story-based goal for people to achieve via donations that has no effect on power bloat; rather the opposite. I don't see 1500 as crazy; it's attainable with some legitimate effort and roughly similar to buying back 5 deaths.
 

Wraith

Newbie
RiddickDale said:
Wraith said:
Bev, unfortunately catering to the 'bigger badder faster more' cried also tends to cost you the players who would have donated to make a more immersive game, as live action WoW heroically generally isn't the game they are out to play.
Again... I will present myself as a counter to your arguement... Along with my entire team and more than a dozen other players that come to mind immediately.

Competitive play does not mean e do NOT want immersion. If all I wanted to do was game competitively I would play CoD online. The immersion is, on some level, why we are all here.

Stephen
Competition is not the problem, Stephen, and you know it. The drive for ever faster and larger rewards for minimal effort is. Goblin blankets and items are pretty much the epitome of that philosophy, being exp and loot on a character without even having to bother getting the weekend off and going to an event to play them.
 

RiddickDale

Squire
Moderator
Public Relations Committee
I don't think either of us knows what the other knows, because I'm not convinced that the problem you see are actually problems per se.

Feel free to take issue with my definition of competitive play. I'm fine with that.

I think we approach this differently. When I hear stories of someone go play tining a bunch of build through donations and I go, "Dude... that's wicked!" We then Hi-5 and proceed to go play Alliance. You hear about it... and get frustrated because someone is abusing some system...

I see a reward for work and effort.... you see abuse that needs "correcting."

I'm willing to accept that my perception might be a bit flowery... and I'm willing to move a little closer to the middle. But, I can't do it alone.

Stephen
 

Togashin

Scholar
Dan Nickname Beshers said:
As a rep for NH, I will point out that a pretty common complaint seen round these here forums is buying back deaths. The expensive epic death policy has pulled over 10000 (yes, 4 zeroes) gobbies in from people who essentially said, "I would rather have an awesome story ending than have the story go on forever." Giving people that option has so far been universally good for our game, providing an entirely story-based goal for people to achieve via donations that has no effect on power bloat; rather the opposite. I don't see 1500 as crazy; it's attainable with some legitimate effort and roughly similar to buying back 5 deaths.
I didn't mean to sound like i thought it was a bad idea, just that it seemed like a bit much.

Back on topic. There is a clear and straight line of gobbies to experience points.
The three main things you are guarantied to be able to do with gobbies are blankets, production, and buying off deaths. Buying blankets is usually the first thing people purchase.
I don't see an issue with money turning directly to blankets, this really already happens. I dont like the idea of money turning directly into items though.
 
I didn't think you were dissing the idea; the posting forum paradigm is really bad at conveying subtext for a running conversation and I figured you were just expressing surprise, not distaste. I just wanted to provide a different context for the concept.

I maintain that the basic framework of the gobbie system is good for the game, and that having a faux currency like goblin stamps is important for allowing and encouraging all manner of donations and effort to improve the game to be acknowledged, tracked and rewarded.
 

Wraith

Newbie
RiddickDale said:
I don't think either of us knows what the other knows, because I'm not convinced that the problem you see are actually problems per se.

Feel free to take issue with my definition of competitive play. I'm fine with that.

I think we approach this differently. When I hear stories of someone go play tining a bunch of build through donations and I go, "Dude... that's wicked!" We then Hi-5 and proceed to go play Alliance. You hear about it... and get frustrated because someone is abusing some system...

I see a reward for work and effort.... you see abuse that needs "correcting."

I'm willing to accept that my perception might be a bit flowery... and I'm willing to move a little closer to the middle. But, I can't do it alone.

Stephen

I swear, I think my posts here are being guest read by a very angry Armenian man in people's heads when they read them.

I think what we have here is a fundamental disagreement on the purpose of character development here. My view is that character development, in the form of experience (and hence build), gear, and in-game standing are properly the rewards given to a player for successfully meeting the challenges of events. Making a few thousand spell packets to give to a chapter is, on it's own, a laudable thing. It improves the game by allowing the resources that would otherwise go to restock NPC camp to be used elsewhere. At the same time, it is not successfully meeting the challenges of events, and therefore is not an appropriate thing to award with increased character power. It gives all the reward, without the risks to the character.

It costs 60 GS, per the Rulebook, to comp an event. At what was mentioned above as the average donation rate, that's the equivalent of $20 in donations. As far as I'm aware, there is no chapter in the Alliance that runs events for $20. So we have a situation where not playing is a better financial deal and will score you one more blanket a month than the folks who just attend the events.

Given the following :

ARB said:
We cannot allow richer people to simply “buy” their way to Goblin Point heaven.
This does not seem to be the intent.
 

MKing

Scout
most of the cash to Gobbie rates that I have seen is 2/1 so $30 would be a price in my mind...which I have seen chapters run events at $30...I have 2 characters I play...2 different chapters...I donate to both...reps and cash... I have in the past gobbie monthlies and missed events on a blank character....did it for a year...walked in just around 7th level...I dont see a problem with that...

someone Npcs for a chapter for a full year...donates tons of stuff...they walk into game the next year...10 level with a few toys...thats fine...

or are you of the mind that its the gobbie events from chapters you dont go to i.e. across the country the "problem"....again I dont see this as a problem...Ive been playing this game for 20+ years..both "sides"....this is by far the better "side" over all.....
 

markusdark

Knight
MKing said:
most of the cash to Gobbie rates that I have seen is 2/1 so $30 would be a price in my mind
For the record, doing the footwork but not releasing the who is who with it:

Of all of the chapters, 35% of them either don't have a list for donations that I could find or don't put forth a gobbie to dollar donation conversion (either with strict money donations or material costs) in their donation wishlist.

Of the other 65%:

50% of chapters offer direct cash for gobbie donations.
50% of the chapters offer over 2:1 gobbie to dollar conversion, with some reaching as high as 5:1 and even further in special cases

I even found a chapter where, with the proper working of things, I could do a direct money to gobbie conversion and get a gobbie blanket per event for $12 each where cost for an event at their game is $45 pre-reg, $60 at the door (a 75-80% savings).

Sorry if this is a little confusing but I figure it's not in the best interest with the way this post has been going to put forth which chapters do exactly what. Afterall, it is up to the individual chapters to set their conversions and donations and there is no wrong in any of it.

I should note that this is information taken from these (national) boards first and, if unable to find it here, then I looked at their home websites. So some syncing may not be correct - especially when some of the donations lists on these boards are stickied and still titled as "Donation Lists for 2010" although my guess is that they just updated the lists as they went along and didn't bother to update the date in the title.

I do love data mining. I really do. Statistics are fun but they can also be flexible.
 

Gilwing

Baron
Alliance Logistics
RiddickDale said:
Wraith said:
Bev, unfortunately catering to the 'bigger badder faster more' cried also tends to cost you the players who would have donated to make a more immersive game, as live action WoW heroically generally isn't the game they are out to play.
Again... I will present myself as a counter to your arguement... Along with my entire team and more than a dozen other players that come to mind immediately.

Competitive play does not mean e do NOT want immersion. If all I wanted to do was game competitively I would play CoD online. The immersion is, on some level, why we are all here.

Stephen

Let them have all the toys they want. At the end of the day it's the player and there RL IG experience that will come into play.
 
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