Preemptive Topic Split - GS

RiddickDale

Squire
Moderator
Public Relations Committee
Wraith said:
I swear, I think my posts here are being guest read by a very angry Armenian man in people's heads when they read them.
Ok... that made me lol. I am pretty sure that if we locked ourselves in a room for an hour we'd come to an understanding on things. In fairness, I don't picture an angry Armenian man... but I do picture an angry man. Part of that being caused by the fact that your word choice is usually pretty angry and cynical. You use words like "It makes me angry" and "I hate"... how else are we supposed to interpret those words?

I see your point on the math.... and I'll be honest... in the state of the game that sentence you quoted needs to be removed or edited. Period.

Stephen
National PR
 

Beverly Byers

Fighter
Traverse City Staff
Wraith said:
Bev, unfortunately catering to the 'bigger badder faster more' cried also tends to cost you the players who would have donated to make a more immersive game, as live action WoW heroically generally isn't the game they are out to play.
I'm not saying cater to them I'm saying compromise. There is a big difference. I want everyone to have a good time when they play Alliance so I'm willing to be flexible with my personal viewpoints. Does that mean I'm going to hand over the moon to anyone who asks? No! That would be catering to them. I'm saying meet me in the middle.
 

Alavatar

Baron
Wraith said:
It costs 60 GS, per the Rulebook, to comp an event. At what was mentioned above as the average donation rate, that's the equivalent of $20 in donations. As far as I'm aware, there is no chapter in the Alliance that runs events for $20. So we have a situation where not playing is a better financial deal and will score you one more blanket a month than the folks who just attend the events.
NPCing in many chapters is free and some even provide food for the NPC. That equates to being better financially. On top of that, many chapters also offer Goblin Stamps in addition to the blankets, so someone that NPCs actually has the potential to gain Build faster (due to Monthly Blankets) than someone that just attends an event as a PC.

I am still trying to understand the point of this thread, no offense. Is it to:

(a) Remove Blankets from being purchased via Goblin Stamps.

(b) Make Blankets purchased via cash.

(c) I am disenchanted that someone can spend OOG resources to increase their IG resources (either through build, production, or magic items). (This is the most common complaint I ever hear with regards to Goblin Stamps)

(d) A combination of the above.

(e) Something else entirely.

If the point is something along the lines of (c), then if something were done to remove IG rewards for OOG work what would replace it for compensation of OOG chapter assistance (assuming the chapter is barely in the black and cannot afford giving discounts)?
 
So as I re-read a good portion of this thread it became a bit clearer that the argument here really isn't about the overall goblin stamp reward system. The real point of contention is two very specific means of acquiring goblin stamps.

1) Pay no Play
and
2) Straight money for goblin stamp donations

These are the two means of acquiring goblin stamps that really translate directly into straight up buying XP. Everyone seems fine with the various other aspects of Goblin stamps for equipment, costuming, labor, etc.

Maybe we could try keeping the conversation focused on these two particulars, rather than the goblin stamp system as a whole. Granted, Pay No play is one of those never ending conversations we've been having for years. But hey, why not do it again.
 

OrcFighterFTW

Spellsword
I don't see why the current system is a bad thing. No matter how powerful or wealthy a character is or how many gobbies the player has, there is still risk permanent character death each game that character is played. Meanwhile, the chapters get valuable resources and/or labor out-of-game that can be used in the future. Both sides win and there is balance in the risk of character death.

If the real concern is not the system, but more about certain players getting to higher out-of-game levels faster than the next guy due to out-of-game resources, I think the bigger issue would be a game that has lost the focus on great role-playing. In everything written about Alliance and as is constantly mentioned, we are first and foremost a role-playing game that incorporates battles, not just a battle game. As role-playing is the main issue, what does it matter what out-of-game level someone is or how they came to be that level? Isn't that why levels are out-of-game in the first place?

Edit: reworded for clarification.
 

markusdark

Knight
There is no risk of death if they just gobbie and pay-no-play. And there is less risk of death when you buy back those deaths with gobbies too.

As for staying on the target of things, I would add into that mix goblin stamps for manufactured goods. Simply buying an item and turning it over to the chapter along with a receipt is just one easy step away from just donating straight cash. Requires almost no additional effort to do as well.

Although it is still up to individual chapters, the idea of something like:

1:1 gobbie to cash donations (event gobbie blanket cost $60)
3:2 gobbie to dollar amount of purchased items/raw materials (event gobbie blanket cost $40)
2:1 gobbie to dollar amount for items created by the player. (event gobbie blanket cost $30)
3:1 gobbie to dollar amount for 'special need' items (such as plot planning on having an invading army from the blue storm army and needs 12 blue tabards with lightning bolts on them).

IMO, this is a more fair setting as those that just want to throw cash will wind up paying just as much as many pay-no-plays, the second level is a small discount for saving plot the effort of heading out and buying the stuff themselves and the third is roughly a half cost for your work to the chapter.

Now, I still don't believe in consecutive pay-no-play events nor getting gobbies from chapters you rarely, if ever attend but this is a slight step in the right direction.
 

OrcFighterFTW

Spellsword
My point is who is really harmed by pay no play or direct donations? If the player is not playing, then that player is not actively affecting the game in any way (or at least should not be). The next time they play, the risk is back. If they die and have to buy back a death, that's more resources that would have been donated to the chapter, which in theory makes the game better for everyone. I do not see what the problem is as I do not see anyone harmed by this policy.

If the only harm is not being able to donate across chapters due to lack of out-of-game resources being seen as a disadvantage to playing the game, I again think there is a lack of focus on role-playing and having a good time with a game. Does it really matter that much if another player has more things in-game than you or is higher level than you due to out-of-game donations? How is that different from having better costuming due to out-of-game skill (or purchasing it outright) or being a better actor due to out-of-game theater experience? What about people that bring in out-of-game friends for a team versus people with less friends who struggle to find a team? Isn't that an unfair in-game advantage? People have different resources to draw on and to bring to the game, why is there only a focus on the financial one as an unfair advantage?
 

Robb G

Baron
your scenario does nothing to prevent the loss of the donations that the chapter would have gotten using the current system. You are only offering a negative solution for what only you and a few others seem to think is a problem.

"reward less because I think it's more fair"

You're trying to regulate how chapters reward their players and set limits on the GS system... you have to understand this WOULD impact the amount of donations a chapter receives. Why? because people remember. They would sit around and say "gee, remember when we could donate 1000 packets and be set for blanketing for the year." I assume you're not going to regulate the amount of GS given out at an event for labor? logistics help? cleanup? Or are you...? You better, or players will get it in their heads that they don't need to donate anymore, because it's far easier to sweep the cabins and earn 200 GS than donate and get shafted by these new regulations. So now you can only get 10 GS for cleaning.. says so here on the chart... now less and less players want to do the jobs that normally rewarded them with GS...

Is anyone else seeing a parallel to Capitalism vs Regulation... or State Rights vs Federalism?

My vote: Leave GS in the hands of the Chapters. I don't see people donating being a problem. Not in 1 chapter, not in 20. Not in chapters they have never played, not if it means they blanket their character in every chapter in the alliance and jump 10 levels per year. Not if they pay-no-play, or flat out buy the character build with cash donations. Good for them, good for the chapter they donated to. I don't see this as "unfair" at all. It was nice of them to give what they could, be it time, money, or some skill.
 

Dom

Scout
Gettysburg Staff
OrcFighterFTW said:
People have different resources to draw on and to bring to the game, why is there only a focus on the financial one as an unfair advantage?

Because, as a resource, people look at money differently than they do anything else. It's a psychological thing. Where time spent practicing in theater or behind a sewing machine are seen as earned because of dedication and time spent, money has a very negative connotation. Money is the deciding factor of social status, it is what separates the haves and have-nots, money is essentially evil. "It's unfair that he/she has the ability to spend money like that and I do not because I have bills and a family." Especially in harsh economic times such as these, having and spending money is looked down upon.

Realistically, there is no difference.

That aside, I believe the real problem people have with pay-no-play is that it can used in chapters that people do not regularly attend. At the same time, these people are donating towards that chapter and enhancing the experience for those who do play at those chapters no matter how small or large the donation is.

This is really becoming an argument for arguments sake and not something that I would think would ever change because, whether you believe it or not. It enhances the game as a whole.
 

markusdark

Knight
Robb,

Every one of your examples about extending such restrictions are about impacting events that those players are attending (Logistics work, cleanup, etc.) All I've suggested is that gobbies should be rewarded to people from the chapters whose games they attend. That's it.

Again, since I don't know enough about all of this as I don't have a lot of chapters in my area, are various chapters really given huge boons via donations from players who never attend their events?

If multiple chapters can honestly say that they are receiving hundreds of dollars worth of donations on a regular basis from people whom they've never seen at their games, then I'll do what many people wish they could have done and shut myself up ;).
 

Robb G

Baron
Those examples were the extension of what you are proposing... the "what happens next" if you will.

My point is, (and I won't even go into Dragon Stamps and how you can simply convert those to Gobbies in any chapter you want), Chapters DO benefit by donations of players who do not play there. I see no benefit to forceably restricting this practice, and an obvious loss. A donation is a donation is a donation... and all chapters need them.

HQ doesn't even require you to have an active membership at the chapter to use your gobbies... because at sometime you got those from a staff member.. at some time.. you helped us... and we think that's awesome.. and you should be rewarded.. even if you're not a current member.
 

Voraath

Newbie
I feel like the general idea of discouraging donations is a bad thing. Increasing costs will make less people do it. Even if chapters only get one pay no play they still have a cash increase.

I feel like the fight against donations is more of a fight against level and magic item creep and if so messing with donations is probably the worst way to deal with it.
 
Personally, I don't like pay no play. I've always felt that experience and character growth are things that should be gained for actually participating in the game. And I mean participating in a very broad, general sense, and include all those things people do behind the scenes to help make the game happen. Making costumes, weapons, working on the event sites, etc.... That is participating, and what's more these things make it so other people can participate and really help out the larger group. So I'm all for gobbie rewards for that stuff. Pay No play has always kind of been it's own weird category, as it doesn't really contribute to the greater whole.

Having said that, I'm not in favor of making any changes to the Gobbie Stamp system. Not to see the costs standardized or anything. There's just so much that goes into these games behind the scenes and gobbie stamps are too integral a part of the equation of getting people to participate and make it happen. And that participation can come in just so many different ways, staff needs some discretion as to how to reward those players.

So leave it be. If you think GS are causing a problem with power gaming and magic item proliferation, well, maybe the thing t do is....

ADDRESS THE RULES! viewtopic.php?f=5&t=10259
You know, so that level creep and the power gap aren't such huge issues that gaining some extra xp is unbalancing....

(I know, I'm such a d**k)
 
This is going to come off more derisive than I mean it. I apologize in advance.

First, I graciously accept money from any player in exchange for fictitious resources for two reasons: their money is used to improve the game far more than the gs I give them hurts it, and I am the one responsible for paying the bills and growing/improving my chapter.

Second, have the people here advocating to do away with the current system ever had this responsibilty?That is, have you ever owned a chapter and been the one writing the checks?

I'm not asking that in order to call you out or anything. Quite the contrary, when I first became a player, and then a staff member, I had a bunch of awesome ideas for improving the game that suffered the slightly unfortunate fate of being completely divorced from reality (eg. You totally should have to be short to play a dwarf!). And oh the game I would have had!!!!...in my mind, sans porta-potties, since I'd have no money to rent them.

We have a $2000 shower system because a player cut me a check for gobbies. He doesn't even, nor has he ever paid-no-play, any chapter...ever.

The current system works. We are getting real things (players that don't stink) for fake things. I have several other players in my db who have way more gs than the dude who cut me a check, and the have acquired these through writing, making packets, washing clothes, donating phys reps. This is not a battle between the haves and the have-nots. It's more so between the doers and the do nots.

And this is coming from a socialist, bleeding heart social worker who thinks Scott Kondrik, in particular should be taxed extra so that the federal govt can send my game, all games, a larger tax refund!

;)
 

markusdark

Knight
Now it's my turn to do the logical next step scenario. And I too apologize ahead of time if anyone takes offense in it.

So then, there is nothing wrong with a chapter creating a following gobbie reward system within its own game:

Character Iron Man Training:

For the following monetary donation, you can advance your character in levels:

Level 1-5 characters - $50 per level until level 6
Level 6-10 characters - $100 per level until level 11
Level 11-15 characters - $175 per level until level 16
Level 16-20 characters - $275 per level until level 21
Level 21+ characters - $400 per level

Starting Specials!

Starting a new character? Don't want to start all the way back at the beginning? Then here's some specials so you don't have to:

Level 5 - $225
Level 10 - $600
Level 15 - $1150
Level 20 - $1800
Level 25 - $2500

For higher levels, contact staff.

In addition, due to plot regional effect within the game, further discounts may apply if you choose a specific race and/or race&build combination. Again, contact staff for more info


Now granted, you'd need to do all of the proper 'goblin point' conversions, adjust my numbers accordingly and this and that to keep it legal according to the rules.

As it's been argued against my more restrictive spending system, nothing more is happening than a PC's build/level is being affected by donations, albeit at a faster pace than gobbies. However, if someone was to simply keep on pumping minimal amounts of money into the game over time, they would just walk into the game at X level suddenly as far as all of the other players would notice. In fact, this way, you don't have to worry about said player using gobbies to create specific magic items or purchasing other things that could lend towards the power bloat curve.

In addition, the chapter receives much needed funding for various items up front instead of having to save up to buy that expensive shower system (whose donation, I would guess, didn't depend upon him getting $4,000-6,000 gobbies in return for it).

Just curious as to when does artificial character advancement become more important than the dollar - if ever.
 

Morganne

Fighter
The system you're proposing does not work within the Alliance rules. There are limits to how far anyone can blanket forward or backward at any given time. Sure, over time you can accumulate levels by using the GS system, but there is a certain amount of time that must pass for this to happen. In an isolated system (and there are a couple in our Alliance) no one can advance in levels faster, in their isolated chapter system, than a person that plays all the events and blankets monthly.

When people have GS in multiple chapters and blanket those other events they may go up in level faster than other locals, but that's not what your system is suggesting. You're proposing a chapter could simply advance someone quickly from level to level at rates that are not possible in our system.

Levels are not simply "bought" at a chapter level - there is a limiter based upon playable events and time.
 

markusdark

Knight
My first response would be "Well then change the rules," (as in go through the proper system of suggesting rules changes, voting, etc.) since it has been suggested by others that the faster advancement of characters doesn't infringe upon the game in any manner. I'm just suggesting doing it in 4th gear instead of 1st. Afterall, it would get beginning chapters who want local only characters much needed funding for startup.

but my second thought is that I'm not sure where in the rules it says you cannot do this. I'll fully admit that defending a position will sometimes cloud the way I interpret things however the only thing I can find is: "Each chapter has its own policies about Goblin Points. Most allow you to use them for the following:" There is nothing in the rules that says that you cannot come up with another useage for said goblin points (as Crossroads is doing with 'Gryphon Gift' and San Francisco is with 'Tidings of the Ancestors') or that they can only be used in such a fashion as LCO.

Unless, as I've said, I'm not reading something right in the rules.

Again, just doin' the whole DA thing here. (that's Devil's Advocate, not Damage Aura) and I"m going to stop on this topic as I'm obviously beginning to do what I said I wasn't going to do in my apology :D
 

Morganne

Fighter
Sure - it's not about how goblin stamps are spent, obviously I'm a proponent of coming up with fun ways to spend gobbies on the local level... it's that there are limits in place to how fast a character may advance. There are time limits on blankets, and limits to how many events can actually be blanketed based upon playability.
 

Lurin

Duke
That depends with a little bit of lead time most of these could be delivered within a short time, and under the cost offered. Speed would be limited, technically, but with the number of chapters giving us nearly complete saturation of Weekends you can Blanket, here is the timeline For building a character, starting in let's say May, and assuming you can blanket 4 events a month until the end of October, then assuming 2 weeks over the 'off' season. and one monthly Blanket per month

End of May - Level 4 - 47 build
End of June - Level 6 - 68 build
End of July - Level 8 - 85 Build
End of August - Level 9 - 100 Build
End of September - Level 10 - 113 Build
End of October - Level 12 - 125 Build
End of November - Level 12 - 132 Build
End of December - Level 13 - 138 Build
End of January - Level 13 - 144 Build
End of February - Level 14 - 149 Build
End of March - Level 15 - 155 Build
End of April - Level 15 - 160 Build

1 Year Total - 160 Build

Just for fun on the next part compare this to a local chapter only situation, in this case an active chapter that runs 8 weekends from May - December, 2 one days in January and March during the 'off season' and monthly blankets. *similar to SoMN's first year in operations

End of May - Level 2 - 28 Build
End of June - Level 3 - 38 Build
End of July - Level 4 - 47 Build
End of August - Level 5 - 55 Build
End of September - Level 5 - 62 Build
End of October - Level 6 -68 Build
End of November - Level 7 - 75 Build
End of December - Level 7 - 80 Build
End of January - Level 7 - 84 Build (One-day month)
End of February - Level 8 - 86 Build (Monthly only).
End of March - Level 8 - 89 Build (one-day Month)
End of April - Level 8 -92 Build

Two separate extremes, clearly super blanketer gains at 4x the rate, or achieves in just over 3 months what an active player would get per year in a single chapter. Of course this assumes a lot of donations, although chapters vary greatly in what they grant for the same donations. I can see the probably with what would take 4 years of playing happening in one, that's a LOT fewer chances to die etc.
 
What you're looking for may not be expressly stated in the rule book, but the current treasure policy and I believe the bylaws make clear that goblin stamp rewards must be LCO in nature, with the only exceptions being buying back deaths, buying production, buying monthly blankets and crediting game days, as all of these things have standardized costs, and the production, blanket and event XP options have additional limits beyond those costs to ensure that character growth and production remain at or below certain levels. Perhaps one notable issue is the number of events per year being run when these policies were first written versus the number now.
 
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