Progression of Power

Parzivel

Parzivel

Artisan
Hello,

I am fairly new, having now been to two events (although I've goblin stamped enough to be 5th level), and I am trying to figure out if I am just in totally the wrong skill progression. I'm a fighter. I've got decent OOG fighting skill and good equipment. But I feel like I will never really get a chance to fight. Everything I find has nausea, or fear, or bind, or sleep, or web, and although I have potions of Spell Shield and try to have a Poison Shield up... I seem to spend my time (and money) just keeping those up. Smacking beasts never really seems to happen, and when it does, there are usually 50 of us doing the same thing, so its not like I'm really even helping out. Most important things fall over after the second Dragon's Breath scroll, or the after the Lightning Storm, or whatnot... the fighters are really just there to yell numbers loudly to keep the BBG from dodging around too much. I don't even generally wear my armor, because it never seems to matter... everything is debilitating effects or Chaos damage anyway. My first game, at the big fight, I got hit with nausea, nausea, paralysis, web, paralysis from the first monster we came to, and then killed. I coulda dodged one, maybe two, but three, four, and five were just as bad.

Do I have this totally wrong? Does it stay like this? Does it change at higher levels? Our whole group is basically less than 70 Build, so maybe that changes things? Is the main skill of the fighter to dodge spell packets? What do/can fighters actually contribute?
 
A low level caster has enough spells to last a couple fights, maybe three to four depending on difficulty and his conservation. Then he's out and will cry for your problems.

A rogue will end the fight panting because he spent the entire time running to get behind the enemy, and he might blow his single dodge on something (or just choose to suffer now and save it for later).

It's a team game. Your team needs to keep you running so you can keep engaged on the bad guy so the rogue can find more opponents and your backpack healer won't die because his meatshield got chewed up in front of him. This is intentional to promote teamwork.

Also, make sure you're fighting stuff designed for your level. If they're chucking bad stuff, don't engage it, and get people who can. Support -them- instead of soaking it all.
 
Your mileage is also going to vary chapter to chapter. Some games have a lot of monsters that you should hit with sticks and others not so much. Low levels can be frustrating in any chapter. I know all plot teams strive to include the low level characters but our game supports an open world where anyone can be included, even if that means Lord Deathomancer is along for the ride popping all the baddies.

That being said, I play a high level earth scholar and would be absolutely hosed without my fighter buddies in many large fights. Sure I can "buy" a fight with spells but then I am tapped and need to hide behind my fighter buddies or draw my sword and hit like a very low level fighter.

Like Evan said, it's a team game. I'll often "backpack" a fighter (casting spells into them to keep them up and fighting) turning myself into a total support role. I've seen celestialists do the same by chaining defensive spells.
 
I remember my first event as a fighter. It was seven years ago in NJ and the APL of that chapter was pretty high at the time (pretty sure it still is). My first wave battle the NPCs were swinging 14 vertigos/nausea/etc and the "low level" crushrooms out in the wild were probably around level 13. It can be a little disheartening but just like a video game you don't get to have all the fun until you level up a bit. At my first event when I was swinging 4s (back blanketed up tot level 2 and used a 2 hander) I definitely felt wracking up the damage was not going to happen. To be frank, it didn't. I did figure out what I could do to benefit everyone and that was to block blows. The wave battle truly was a line against line fight with shield guys in the front. I stood in the second line and used the reach of my weapon to block npc weapons. It was actually very successful and I did feel that I contributed.

I would say at the low levels you learn how to be a good defender and dodger of packets because your very survival depends on it. And while you may not be wrecking face, your are being the necessary distraction so that your team mates and other players stay safe and can deal damage . ALSO USE ARMOR if you have it. My 2nd level fighter was able to take a hit and his armor would hold. A second hit and the carrier would get through. To a fighter armor is key. A decent set will allow a fighter to take 2-3 carrier hits without feeling the effect.

With a group and everyone being around the same level I would say you are better off than most. When it come to modules you guys should get some great balance. To answer another one of your questions, yes, the game does get better at higher levels but you aren't far off. When your casters get their first 9th level spell and you get your first eviscerate while swinging 6/7s you'll start to feel quite a bit better. If you are eager to dish out some damage and feel useful you can do what I did. NPC

The first time I NPCed I fell in love with it. Leveling my character FOR FREE and always going out and doing something. It's a blast and definitely worth doing. Earning some GS and maybe getting your fighter a magic item will do wonders. Thats just my 2 cents. Also expect a nice change by next season if you blanket during the off season. You'll come back to a decent chunk of free build and feel like a whole new warrior.
 
(FYI other folks: This is the denver game, were all level 1-5, most of us in the 4-5 area. Also, CC = Crowd control, so anything that takes you outta combat. I'm an MMO guy.)

I can totally empathize with feeling...useless compared to others at our level in our game. I've been there many times.

Issue is, Fighters in comparison to mages, gas throwers, templars freaking suck at low levels. Rogues aint in better shape either unless they have alchemy. It's a system problem. They have way more powerful stuff quickly, and we just aren't that hoss - yet. Later levels we grow in profs or profs and abilities, and the body we have far outshines what others do. But bottom line? System inequities at our levels. But its okay, give it a few more levels, I've done the math and talked to others, we become tanky gods after a bit as we rise in base damage and body. (and get some necessary magic items)

However, I completely share the "(BLEEP) YOU" of gasses and other CC's in combats. It's like wow, great, 1 shot Im bored as hell. I had this happen in the first fight of the second event, and I was like "Really? 10 minutes? WTF kinda game you running? I wanna play!". However, I do see the reason for all of that, and our game has grown to handle more CC related mobs. Seriously, it works out fine with the right balance - but sometimes you're just in the wrong place at the wrong time and eat CCs.

I've learned the following:

1. Learn to packet dodge, and make positioning decisions based on this. I've been working on this for months at fighter practice, and its half the reason I NPC at fighter practice for the practice of dodging packets. One mod I went on I dodged EVERY packet thrown at me (like 8) through good positioning and OOG dodging skills.

2. Protectives. I now full time run around with a spell shield, poison shield, bless, and armor (from scroll) on me at all times. I need to actually get another endow for "(BLEEP) happens" again. I also keep magic armor potions on me for taking slays and etc. That potion belt I have? Heal 2, Heal 5, Heal 10, Magic Armor, Magic Armor, Spell Shield, Poison Shield, Release. That other pouch has the rest of my "fix CCs" potions. Honestly, I'm debating getting another one just for spell shields and poison shields to make life easier. There is also a chunk of magic items around the game for this stuff too.

It's expensive, and it does suck and I'm glad for my GS from being a volunteer-(BLEEP). Most of my friends IG that don't have the potion store/GS I do, we see that they get the magic items with the protectives and CC fixes.

3. Backpacking. This is why you have support casters tbh. Releases, Purifies, Shields, you name it. You take it, they re-apply quickly. Few months ago I got NAILED by Drain, I was instantly fixed. Right after I got webbed, again instantly fixed. Its all about the crew you have with you. Even with mobs that entangle, I handed out my throwing daggers to the whole crew, I dont think I spent more than 5 seconds entangled in that mod.

4. Just suck it up. Were tanks. Our job is to soak while being a threat and just take it while others move in for the kill. Really right now we aren't the "killers" were the ones that are positioning and controlling the fight so the "killers" can get their stuff in.

5. It's not always bad. Some fights are overstatted due to the lower number of NPCs, meant to be super deadly (like the tree thing where you got CC'ed to hell and back and killed), some are just crazy - but intentional that way for the challenge. But overall with all of my encounters from crunchies to mods to major plot? Not as common as you'd think. You essentially had what I encountered my second event - constant in the face bad news.

Other stuff:
Armor: Wear it. I've gone sans armor 3 times. Twice I wish I had not, the other was a stealth mission and I'm glad I left the plate mail in the ward. Even if its 20 points it does come in handy and help.

50 people unleashing: One, our game is fighter heavy for some reason. Two, get into a tactics squad for the big fights, its why I kept trying to get you guys back over with Jellyfish or Chimera. That big fight saturday night vs the Undead warchester crew I was in the back left turning the group of mobs (and they fell for our pull - got 5 of them to follow the 3 of us, while others pushed in), annihilating multiple npcs (several kills too), and then dealing with positioning the death knights. Three: Go on mods, chase down crunchies. We shine there.

Overall: If the second event was my first, I prolly wouldn't like this game. You essentially have experienced what I did on my second event - tons of chaos (that did more damage than the body I had), tons of CCs. But ive adapted, experienced more fights - and Im loving this game now. Hang in there man.
 
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Extra note:

Magic items. Given time, activatable Purifies, Releases, Cloaks, Healing, all mean that you withstand the onslaught to get to the chucker, at which point you turn him into a fine, red mist.

And you will feel like a Spartan.
 
Let me discuss the other side of this too. From what I can discern, you are in Denver. Denver is a new game. Jesse is incredibly experienced, but the rest of his team is pretty new. And, while Jesse has tons of experience, he has been running higher level games for quite some time now. I think there are two learning curves at play here. First, you are getting familiar with the battle flow. Second, the Denver team is still working on truly mastering scaling (and Jesse is probably trying to remember low-level game instincts which have grown rusty over the years). Scaling is both art and science. When done right, the game just clicks for everyone. But it is VERY easy to make small mistakes that cascade.

In your shoes, I think the best thing to do is to watch for situations that are making the game less fun for you and then to politely inform monster camp / plot member / monster marshal / etc. shortly after the incident (while it is still fresh in your mind) but in a way that doesn't disrupt the game. Be specific about your concerns (for example, "I felt the number of KO effects were overwhelming given the level of the players / game.") and definitely give examples. The plot team may actually have intended to overwhelm with KO effects, but more experienced team members will understand that while one battle that may be okay, over a weekend it creates player fatigue. It also reminds the team to send out encounters that are friendlier to your type of build.

The other thing that may or may not be at cause is NPC : PC ratio. The worse the ratio, the more commonly that KO effects are used to even the odds. At a 3:1 ratio, I know I tend to use a few more KO effects to prevent NPC gang bangs. At 4:1 or worse, I definitely pull out that tool because I don't like seeing NPCs covered in bruises or feeling completely useless (bad NPC morale hurts the game). If NPC ratio looks like it might be part of the problem, it helps to encourage people to NPC or jump fence at various points over the weekend.

-MS
 
Mike,

I think Jesse is doing an amazing job with scaling and fight difficulty - sometimes he even goes a bit too easy on us. The scenarios he creates are well statted for what hes expecting, and he adjusts well too on the fly - along with a lot of his crew who helps him. He also takes feedback REALLY well like you recommended, so for the Denver crew - I assure you Jesse is freakin amazing. Best part is? Every event, every mod, he tweaks and evaluates. I see constant improvement and better enjoyment with this every game, and he does tune to build/style types that I've seen. I wouldn't say hes rusty, I'd say hes being a master scientist with it.

You definitely nailed the part about the odds of PCs vs NPCs, and although I hate hate hate hate hate hate x infinity CCs, I totally approve of their use to better manage making a fight challenging and colorful, and Jesse and crew have done a great job tuning to what they have to work with.

Mostly its a "new player to the system" perception thing, that I found personally I adjusted to pretty fast.
 
Fighters, in general remain kind of Magic Item dependent throughout their lives. As they progress, they can throw more damage, and maneuvers such as eviscerate become available, but the bottom line is that they still have to walk up and hit something. To get to that point, Cloaks, Banes, Protectives and such become extremely important, especially if you carry a big packet target.. I mean shield.

All told, fighters shine the best in the lower levels, and fights where their damage can make a big difference because they can swing it all day long. Hybrid classes such as Templars and Adepts hit a valley in the beginning, where their skills aren't enough to mix well in either direction, but really come into their own later on around 13 - 15th level, when they can cast a decent level spell and swing damage too.

I think a couple of reasons why Denver is so fighter heavy is because 1) incants are harder to deal with on the fly, and take more studying to learn 2) people have some really good looking armor and want to show it off and 3) we have some very proficient fighters in terms of out of game skill. We haven't had a really big nasty NPC to fight yet, like a lich or high wraith or something, though we have seen inklings of things. As we move towards fighting some of the bigger things the game has to offer, we may see more casters and hybrids

As levels go up, so will packet attacks and take-downs, and at its heart, this is a team game, and having people on your team to fill the other roles and save your hoop when you need it is the way to go.
 
As someone who nearly always PCs a caster when I do PC... the casters can feel that way sometimes too! Thing is, fighters can keep going all - day - long. If I'm a pure caster and I run out of spells... well, I'm done. At low levels as a caster, you also have very few spells. Back when I first started as a baby healer back at a different game, I learned very quickly to be useful by dragging incapacitated people out of combat to the people who still had spells left... or using First Aid a lot... or judicious use of potions... because my ten-spells-a-day went pretty fast.

Casters can do more damage in one shot, at least at first, but you can do more steady, continuous damage. You won't run out of "four normal". Also casters are really squishy... if we don't have fighters ahead of us, we die fast.

It's hard to feel really useful on the big town battles, especially if you're a sword-and-board fighter. If you're in the shield wall, you're not often doing a lot of damage, but you're keeping the NPCs from doing much damage either. Not as much glory, perhaps, but tremendously effective. I cannot tell you how frustrated I as an NPC get with friggin' shield fighters with their ginormous amounts of armor - I feel like I can never do much to you! I'm a skirmisher type of NPC - so I do my best to run around your shield wall and get to the squishy people in the back. A good shield formation with competent flankers at the back and sides keeps me from doing that as effectively.

The effectiveness of a shield wall and the large amounts of armor/body that fighters have mean that we NPCs often save our crowd control/incapacitates for the shield wall. Those shields are spell/gas catchers, big targets, and there's no way we'll take you down otherwise unless we've got a ton of NPCs, a lot of waves/pops, or we're swinging for chaos/body or something. It's only smart to use gases and spells and disarms on the shield fighters.

I hope that clarifies that fighters contribute a lot, even at the level of our game currently, and are tremendously vexing to orcs and ogres and undead. ;) It's just perhaps not as immediately obvious when you are the fighter.

If what you want is to do damage and have the glory of taking something down... especially if you don't want to fight alongside a group of 50 people... Get a well-balanced group of 4-6 together and go mod hunting or patrolling. We try to have wandering crunchies out as often as possible, and they often try to stay away from too-large groups of people. Look for mod cards - there were 16 mod cards on site last event and only 6 or 8 of them or so got turned in (at least, when I last counted on Saturday) - and take your balanced adventuring party on those mods. A good group includes a shield fighter or two, a flanker/skirmisher type, a healer (or at least a ton of potions), and someone with legerdemain. You'll get your chance to hit things a lot!

If you're always traveling with a group of 8-12, you're not going to encounter as much unless the monsters are mindless or desperate. If you're always staying near the tavern, you're not going to encounter as much. This past event was a little unusual in that the tournament took up so much of the players' time which is why I'm guessing people weren't hunting mod cards as much, though we had more than enough NPCs available to run mods if people brought them in. Next event will definitely have mod cards, wandering monsters, and the like, so just make sure to get out there and go exploring with a small group and you should find plenty of fun. :)
 
Additionally, Alliance is explicitly designed so that you need someone from every class to get stuff done. If you're a fighter by yourself, or a team of only fighters, you're going to get eaten alive if your opponent has a caster or a gas rogue. If you're a team of casters, well, you might survive your first wave but then you're dead. If you don't bring someone with legerdemain, you're going to have difficulty with traps, and that trapped box of treasure and notes might get blown up to uselessness. It's a team game, and I have read posts from the administration saying that they wanted people to specialize and for it to be very costly for any one person to be able to do everything.
 
Draven, I think you've hit on the mark: We don't have a lot of items right now, and so I'm not even really sure what is available. Once I'm able to cloak, or release, etc. I think that will alleviate a lot of this frustration. I'm not so much thinking about mods: I get that I need to build a team to go on a mod. Its that even walking to the bathroom I need a caster with me, because every gnoll that jumps out from behind the outhouse has stuff that kills on hit and there's little I can do about it. The big battles aren't the problem either. I routinely come out of those will all my armor intact. And while that is because it feels like the PCs are trying to get to the baddies like Moms to Tickle-Me-Elmo dolls at Christmas, it doesn't bug me. My ability to tank doesn't seem useful when I am only tanking the first packet that hits me.

I agree with Eadar that I think Jesse goes way too light on us. Part of that is that his NPC pool is often small and many of them are inexperienced, so its hard to really make it rough on huge numbers of relatively more experienced PCs. I'm obviously NOT talking about you here, Dani. So to make up for it, there is some CC, but that just makes it a very boolean function: Packet: Down. No Packet: Unharmed.

Sounds like my lot it life is to dodge the best I can, kill what I can, and wait for antidotes or releases until I can get some of my own toys. I'm ok with that, if it gets better later.
 
Parzivel said:
I agree with Eadar that I think Jesse goes way too light on us. Part of that is that his NPC pool is often small and many of them are inexperienced, so its hard to really make it rough on huge numbers of relatively more experienced PCs. I'm obviously NOT talking about you here, Dani. So to make up for it, there is some CC, but that just makes it a very boolean function: Packet: Down. No Packet: Unharmed.

Sounds like my lot it life is to dodge the best I can, kill what I can, and wait for antidotes or releases until I can get some of my own toys. I'm ok with that, if it gets better later.
Click to expand...

And also like I said, give it some more experiences - you've been in a lot more wrong place wrong time fights. I'd say I've had at least 15 good fights where I feel useful vs 1 where I don't. The boolean isn't that often if you have people with you who can deal with that - even without all those high level magic gizmos.
 
Again, my point is that I'm just fine WITH a caster to escort me to the potty, but it feels frustrating to be totally reliant on someone else. When those three goblins come out of the dark, my in-game mind says "I can take them." My out of game mind knows that each one is probably carrying one alchemy packet, so I can't. On the other hand, I see the difficulty that if they DIDN'T all carry their packets, when 6 of us come walking down the road and they jump out, it is a total slaughter and they might as well have gone to bed early.
 
Got it. Issue is creating a challenge vs the unknown (as were unknown of who will be where when), but at the same time fulfilling a game world ecology.

There's wandering monsters. They could be mindless, there to get treasure (from us), or just out to cause trouble. It will be circumstance - at times the NPCs will be overpowered (rare), at times its an even fight (rare), and the rest of the time the PCs are overpowered (common). Part in parcel of this is we are at a 4:1 ratio or worse usually right now with PCs:NPCs, so the power level of the monsters has to increase. Which also means CCs/KOs to even out the fight numbers. First PC/Meanest looking PC/Reputationally Challenging PC is most likely gonna get that take out effect.

Take the 4 Gnolls (like you hit Saturday night) with two gas packets. While that will wreck a solo fighter if you aren't able to dodge, it wont be so bad for two fighters if you have protectives on and can replace them with potions/whatever. Likewise, I ran into a different pop of the same group, I took the gas with a protective, got another one back on, 2nd missed, and while Vira dismantled one, Panax bound/webbed the other three. I got the face full of gasses cause I'm 1: considered dangerous, 2: Was right up front, 3: its my job. Had they been able to gas Panax that would have been rougher. So while that fight may have been rough for you solo, or with a small group of fighters, it was a good fight for us - even if we torched them. If it was a typical group of 6+ PCs, mincemeat.

The mods are setup for 6 people, and they will restat on the fly to create a challenge depending who shows. At the same time some mods are static - if you don't bring the right mix, you're dogmeat, if you bring an overpowered mix, its easy peasy. The encounters/big battles unfortunately are really dependent on how many NPCs they have, and even jacking up the power level, our strats provided we stick to a smart one tends to overpower them.

If you think about it in terms of Ecology of the world, and limitations of NPC amounts, thats where we're at. You can get a bad luck string as its semi random. You could get a good luck string. You could get the perfect string of balance vs who you're with. They could drop good loot, they could drop absolutely nothing. I think a good contrast for me is with that - While I seem to be lucky in finding good fights, I have the worst luck in the world with loot. I actually went on a mod with NO loot last event, but I got into some really excellent fights that pushed me, two that even worried me.

Lastly - Guard duty. I find some of my best, most enjoyable for a Fighter fights has been on guard duty vs the various crunchies we deal with during that. During the dinner & performance section of the tournament I did guard duty, had 4 enjoyable fights, and there was a total of 6 times we were hit that I know of for sure (I missed two, as they chose the wrong section of the guard to F with).

Even with all of that, what do you find fun? Feedback to the plot team is taken well, and they will do what they can with the resources they have. Reliance on others is part of the game, its supposed to be cooperative, but it can be done with just fighters, fighters/rogues, etc. Just bring a few potions with in case (bleep) happens. I assure you not everything has CC/KO stuff on them.
 
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I kinda know the feeling. I am only a level 6 at HQ and a third of the time I feel useless. I went archer so that helps because I am fighting mostly from the second line. With a fast hand and two weapon skill you can be a Jack of all jobs kinda fighter.
 
Parzivel,

I want to offer the perspective of someone who has been in the same situation as you. Many years ago, my first event, I did not swing my weapon at all. I did not use a valid combat skill until my second event, and it was a waylay. It is all about mindset and being comfortable in your character's shoes.

Your last story of those goblins is actually a good example of getting comfortable. You saw four goblins come down the road. You were ready to fight them, but you thought ahead and figured they might have alchemy. That was not OOG knowledge, that is IG combat experience telling you that goblins tend to have a trick or two. It might be frustrating in practice, but what I see is the development of planning and forethought.

The secret about that story is that it scales with all levels of play. Know what you are comfortable doing, and keep aware of your situation, and combat stays engaging regardless if it is goblins or vampires.

My offering of advice is based on your original story: That fighters are there to cage in the BBG so they do not run around a lot. Often times that is exactly what high level fighters often do. The untold story is what low level fighters often do: which is stop monsters from getting to those who cannot defend themselves at all. It is often times not "the heroic job" on the battle field, and fighters of every level very often get webbed, confined, drained, and wither limbed to a stump. If you are comfortable finding gaps in the line and putting your body there to stop the harm from coming to your friends, then a fighter is for you.

Cheers,
Mike D.
 
A few pointers:

1.) Do not worry about magic items, learn how to play the game in your own skin. The time for magic items will come, but first you need to get to the point where you are matching the monsters skill for skill and even punching a little above your weight against BBG players going full out....then you know you need the items. Anything sooner and it is a crutch working against you.

2.) Mass battles have more than just many levels of players, they have many levels of monsters. Lower level players can always help keep the lower monsters off the more powerful characters as they try to deal with the BBG's. Eventually you will find yourself holding even these off for a moment or two. The idea of perfecting defensive abilities first is a good step towards this.

3.) The team aspect of the game is intentional. It is relevant even at high levels. This can get confused when you watch a really skilled player with a high level card moshing lots of smaller monsters played by younger NPC's, but it is true.

4.) This is a continuous game. Many LARPS only run for a few years and end and reboot. The allure of this one is the fact that does not happen. One of the consequences is the likelihood that there will always be variances in power level. This is part of what I think you are noticing, but just remember it is no more a bad thing than different people at different ages having different levels of skill in real life. It is not about being the best that ever was, it is about being good enough to do what you want to do. That is a goal you can work towards. It means team work in the interim before super-heroism in the future. BTW, even the super heroes tag up and get in over their heads from time to time.

Joe S.
Resident Jerk
 
I definitely feel the same way. Im a lvl 4 rogue right now, and on my own I suck. But what I've figured out with my guild IG is this: I fight with a shield and am ambidextrous. We have a fighter who is the same way, a healer and a rogue. The fighter and I will create a 2 person shield wall in front of the healer who "backpacks" both of us, and while we keep the baddies busy, the rogue sneaks around to the back and will immediately deal massive damage (being higher level), but without me in the shield wall, the fighter would be overrun very easily, and so my "unimportant" role soon fades away when I keep our healer alive.
 
I dunno, I'm a level 7ish rogue and I feel much more useful on my own.

Put me in a large battle and I'm lucky to do anything productive, but solo against 1-2 enemies, or against small groups with my ig foster brother and I feel like a champion.
 
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