Racial features: Ogres

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Avaran

Baron
Sure, as long as it's there as a character or national flaw. Orcs are not a systemically oppressed people, as they do not exist, and real orcs will not be hurt by in-game oppression.
Okay, so how do you know they didn't just write that in as a character flaw so they could be racist against players who are a race they actually, ya know, dislike or whatever. There is absolutely no way to prove their out-of-game viewpoints, so it's enabling them to be racist with no consequence of any discernible nature.
 

Samyania

Scholar
Seattle Staff
I mean, high fantasy in general has an unfortunate history of being pretty saturated in racist undertones, so that's super possible, but I'd like to hope people are better than that, or at least that they'd be discouraged from remaining in the community? Unfortunately it's difficult to ban people for their terrible beliefs unless they act on them and wow this post has gotten a bit off-topic
 

Tantarus

Squire
I think you're creating a false equivalency with an unrealistic scenario that has nothing to do with present systemic and cultural oppression.
You said feelings matter. People of Norse descent are real. They have a religion/culture that involves dark elves. They have feelings. These are all facts. They could be offended by the actions being proposed in this thread as it effects something they hold dear. Just because there are fewer people of Norse historical beliefs you dismiss them as and their feelings as being unrealistic or a false equivalency?

You are right these beliefs are old, held by smaller numbers, and don't have anything do with present oppression culture, but does that mean they have less merit? Should we not care about possible offensive to them as well?
 

tieran

Duke
Gettysburg Staff
Marshal
You do see how you saying svartaelfir are not real could be considered offensive to someone of Norse descent right?
I'm of Norse descent, I am not offended.

What you probably meant here, is to ask if it was able to be seen how a person ascribing to Norse mythology as a faith could be offended.

But don't worry, I am not offended that you assumed anyone from a particular background had a particular set of beliefs or that a particular set of beliefs was limited to people of specific backgrounds.
 

Tantarus

Squire
I was not worried. And I never said "All" of anything. I used words like "could be" not "will be"/ Nice smear tactics though:p
 

MondayMcGee

Scholar
San Francisco Staff
I would think that if dark elves as they appear in Alliance are a part of the Norse religion (or close enough that they seem to be the clear inspiration), that would be a further argument for changing them so as not to be using elements of a real-world religion in our fantasy game.
 

tieran

Duke
Gettysburg Staff
Marshal
You said feelings matter. People of Norse descent are real. They have a religion/culture that involves dark elves. They have feelings. These are all facts. They could be offended by the actions being proposed in this thread as it effects something they hold dear. Just because there are fewer people of Norse historical beliefs you dismiss them as and their feelings as being unrealistic or a false equivalency?

You are right these beliefs are old, held by smaller numbers, and don't have anything do with present oppression culture, but does that mean they have less merit? Should we not care about possible offensive to them as well?
Being of Norse/Nordic descent, does not mean that you think Thor and Odin are real.

Neither does not being of Norse/Nordic descent meant that you don't think they are.

Personally, I don't think that being newer grants a particular fairy tale (or set of fairy tales) any more weight than being more recently imagined.

And neither does the amount of people who believe or disbelieve in it.
 

Tantarus

Squire
Being of Norse/Nordic descent, does not mean that you think Thor and Odin are real.

Neither does not being of Norse/Nordic descent meant that you don't think they are.
You read alot into my posts that was not there. I didnt state either of these things.
 

tieran

Duke
Gettysburg Staff
Marshal
I was not worried. And I never said "All" of anything. I used words like "could be" not "will be"/ Nice smear tactics though:p
Smear tactics, nothing. If it was, I'd be going after you, not your words.

The point I was making is that it is not any issue of who you are descended from, but instead what your belief set is.
 

Alavatar

Baron
We should just disallow racism in the game too. It might offend someone.

Oh, theft shouldn't be allowed either.

And while we're at it, let's just stop all of the indiscriminate killing and violence. We could have victims of domestic abuse, or other physical violence who might get offended.

We should also stop killing fake animals because it might convey that we dislike the environment.
I feel that flippant hyperbolic commentary like this shows a lack of respect and degrades the underlying concerns. As well as detracts from the OP.

The topic is trying to have a respectful request to change racial make-up in an attempt to be more respectful and welcoming to people of all ethnicity. It is not trying to change the paradigm of the game.

Okay, so how do you know they didn't just write that in as a character flaw so they could be racist against players who are a race they actually, ya know, dislike or whatever. There is absolutely no way to prove their out-of-game viewpoints, so it's enabling them to be racist with no consequence of any discernible nature.
This is where the Good Sportsmanship rule comes into play and the Owner can ban whoever they want for whatever they want. If someone is being a tool trying to integrate a means of performing real-world racism it is the staff's responsibility to call that bullcrap and deal with the player.
 
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tieran

Duke
Gettysburg Staff
Marshal

Eldor

Artisan
I would think that if dark elves as they appear in Alliance are a part of the Norse religion (or close enough that they seem to be the clear inspiration), that would be a further argument for changing them so as not to be using elements of a real-world religion in our fantasy game.
Regrettably if we did this, we actually could not have any Fantasy elements, as nearly all aspects of fantasy are based off of old religions, what many would refer to now as mythology and folklore.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
Can a Paladin please intervene and either lock this thread or make a warning, please?
 

tieran

Duke
Gettysburg Staff
Marshal

Samyania

Scholar
Seattle Staff
I'm fine with changing them. It hurts no one by changing, and if it makes the game more comfortable/accepting for even one person, it's worth it.
That's my feeling.
 

Tantarus

Squire
I need to stop with the personal attacks?
Yeah that would be great, you misrepresented my statements repeatedly to assign a negative commendation to them and me. I never said all or blanket statements like that. I never said how non norse people could believe or not believe. These are all strawmans you are making of me. You are assigning motives and viewpoints to my statements that are clearly not there.

I simply used Norse as a example because they are the most likely to hold the beliefs I was arguing on behalf of. You seem to feel the need to jump all over me about it cause you feel offended I was discussing some Norse beliefs, do you know my heritage? Yeah I thought not.

I'm fine with changing them. It hurts no one by changing, and if it makes the game more comfortable/accepting for even one person, it's worth it.
To get back on topic. I can see and respect this viewpoint. And I think it is a fair point of view. Though think it is a bit over the top because you can argue hurt feelings on just about anything.

That said. I would not really care either way as I am not affected because I dont play these races. But I am fine with playing devil's advocate for the people that do and are too afraid to speak up. That said I am not thrilled with being strawmaned and slandered, though not surprised I guess. So going to take a break from this thread. I made the points that needed to be made. And have no real investment in the outcome.
 
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tieran

Duke
Gettysburg Staff
Marshal
It has nothing to do with your heritage, but nice attempt to make it about that.

You were the one making accusations of a smear tactic. I reclarified my point and you elected to decide it was a personal attack.
 

Saephis

Squire
So, with this thread going exactly where I think we were all afraid/expecting it would go, I'll just add a few points from my decade of Dark Elf within Alliance, on each coast.
  • Because of the sensitive, racial topics pertaining to literal black makeup covering one's face, I've been regularly apprehensive to share my pasttime with many outside it. That goes so far as to avoid all tagging from anything on things like Facebook or Instagram.
  • My first forray to the HQ campaign included warnings to go nowhere near the road, due to local ordinances against such makeup application in public (seeing as private can't truly be controlled).
  • I've had comments around or directly including the term 'black face' due to the black makeup for Dark Elves, by fellow players and at game. Even in a joking manner, it doesn't come across well.
In the same context as others claiming "it isn't the same, and those non-white people should see the difference", the same argument can be made towards people claiming that black-skin or yellow-skin makeup is required. I can say that my experiences wouldn't have been the same were black makeup not the requirement, and from a makeup perspective, high contrast of true-skintone to makeup generally serves to detract from game, due to cracks in said makeup or smearing -- you start to look like you're literally in makeup real quick if you're not behaving in some heavily OCD behaviors.

With that, I'll get out of this still-toxic-back-and-forth exchange.
 
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