Racial features: Ogres

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Agnar

Newbie
While we're at it should we remove the pseudo-Japanese RP from the Dark Elves as well?
That seems like it could be pretty offensive.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
Okay.

This post has gotten toxic, and there's clearly going to be insistence on it remaining so. I'm out.
 

MaxIrons

Squire
Oregon Staff
Marshal
While we're at it should we remove the pseudo-Japanese RP from the Dark Elves as well?
That seems like it could be pretty offensive.
It could be, but I refer back to my previous post where that is beyond the scope of this discussion, and something that local plot teams can tackle should they decide to. When I was on the Seattle plot team the local Dark Elves had a regimented, honor driven society, but were not pseudo Japanese for example. If cultural caricatures or misrepresentation is present in your current chapter, I would suggest speaking with your chapter through their proper channels.
 

mythic

Knight
Owner
Calgary Staff
Our Dark Elves are based on Romans (they have a Senate and Latin sounding names etc.), so, yeah, it is completely up to your local PLOT team to decide that sort of thing. But the colouring is something we can change on a national level.
 

Gilwing

Baron
Alliance Logistics
I think Steve (Agnar) is referring to the NATIONAL race packet and description.
There are several examples that point to it as well. This is one
"There are occasions where death is preferable to life. One of them is when a dark elf has disgraced himself or herself in some way. True remorse followed by a brave and formal suicide can do much to revoke some of the grievances caused by the individual’s life, or at least make the best of a bad situation. Also, if a very heroic act will result in death, particularly if it benefits the dark elf race as a whole, a true dark elf will embrace the opportunity as they will find no better or more glorious end to their lives. Again, this is not the same as wandering through life hoping to die and dwelling upon the idea of death."
I believe the leader of Japan did this after the dropping of the second atomic bomb by the United States.
 

Agnar

Newbie
Without saying the actual words it is clear that the rulebook description is referencing Bushido and seppuku.
 

MaxIrons

Squire
Oregon Staff
Marshal
I am aware of the race packet, and that many of the fantasy/mythic tropes used for our races come from problematic literary tropes, but "Death before dishonor" is broader than Japan. Local plot teams can and do, bring very different flavors to that core idea. Recognizing that it has problematic roots is vital in not making your races stereotypes, but recognizing that broad mythic ideals aren't limited to certain real world mythologies can give a great deal of freedom to individual plot team world building as well.
 

Darkcrescent

Knight
Chicago Staff
Marshal
I think we could deviate off this thread for Racial Packets if we want to talk about things to change.

Otherwise, as mentioned, talking to the owners is a good start.
 

Paladin of Chaos

Scholar
Moderator
Thank you folks for getting back on topic, and getting back to a more civil tone.

Please remember that all the members of this community have different experiences and opinions, and the players who post here often feel very strongly about them. Taking conversations to PMs or messenger is a great way to figure out how words are intended versus how they're being read. It also helps keep public posts less cluttered and progressing.
 

kes166

Artisan
Hey all,

with the playtesting in full swing and a few racial changes happening I.E. Sulinari vs. The G word. Barbarians becoming oathsworn etc.

Could I make a few additional suggestions- dark elves changed to grey skin, and Ogres changed to bluish/ corpselike blue.

Both would be done as to avoid Blackface/yellowface. This could be helpful as often players will run into real town with makeup on or forget. Also, for player's whom are nonwhite these may be offensive in some ways. Reaching out to local communities an having to explain why we have yellow people and black skines people is a bit touchy.

Just asking.

Your friend
Ray
I can understand where you are coming from, but we need to take a look at this in the smaller picture of the LARPing community and not a larger picture at things that might be going on in the world. I wouldn't want to change something in the game for this reason that could potentially cause damage to the aesthetics of the game purely for this reason and I haven't seen or heard of anyone being offended by the makeup of a Drow or Ogre.

With that said, I wouldn't be opposed to completely removing the Drow and Ogre and add a different character race that was recommended (on page 4?) such as an Oni that might use a different color makeup.
 
I can understand where you are coming from, but we need to take a look at this in the smaller picture of the LARPing community and not a larger picture at things that might be going on in the world. I wouldn't want to change something in the game for this reason that could potentially cause damage to the aesthetics of the game purely for this reason and I haven't seen or heard of anyone being offended by the makeup of a Drow or Ogre.

With that said, I wouldn't be opposed to completely removing the Drow and Ogre and add a different character race that was recommended (on page 4?) such as an Oni that might use a different color makeup.
Don't take this the wrong way, but just because you haven't personally seen it, that doesn't mean there isn't a significant segment of the population that is offended by what is perceived as blackface. I don't remember the exact post, but someone shared examples of people discussing how they were made uncomfortable by black face pain in LARP. Those examples may not be Alliance specifically, but the LARP community is rather small, which means even if these people don't play Alliance, they are probably friends with Alliance players or friends of friends at worst.

And that is the key. We are part of a greater LARP community that has begun to really take notice of this issue. In fact, by most LARP standards, Alliance is significantly behind the curve in addressing some of the inherently racist tropes that have long been part of our game. I think it is safe to say that we received a lot of latitude, because we were an older LARP, but that latitude only goes so far. Newer LARPs are simply doing better than Alliance when it comes to cultural sensitivity, and the excuse that these are artifacts of an older game is wearing thin with much of the LARP community.

We have been given more time to correct past problems than most, but that time is running out. I'm not certain which way we should fall on the ogre question, but when it comes to dark elves, I have no question that continuing to depict them in a way that is synonymous with blackface for a large segment of the population is a huge mistake that is harmful to part of our player base and harmful to our reputation in the LARP community.

-MS
 

Gilwing

Baron
Alliance Logistics
Don't take this the wrong way, but just because you haven't personally seen it, that doesn't mean there isn't a significant segment of the population that is offended by what is perceived as blackface. I don't remember the exact post, but someone shared examples of people discussing how they were made uncomfortable by black face pain in LARP. Those examples may not be Alliance specifically, but the LARP community is rather small, which means even if these people don't play Alliance, they are probably friends with Alliance players or friends of friends at worst.

And that is the key. We are part of a greater LARP community that has begun to really take notice of this issue. In fact, by most LARP standards, Alliance is significantly behind the curve in addressing some of the inherently racist tropes that have long been part of our game. I think it is safe to say that we received a lot of latitude, because we were an older LARP, but that latitude only goes so far. Newer LARPs are simply doing better than Alliance when it comes to cultural sensitivity, and the excuse that these are artifacts of an older game is wearing thin with much of the LARP community.

We have been given more time to correct past problems than most, but that time is running out. I'm not certain which way we should fall on the ogre question, but when it comes to dark elves, I have no question that continuing to depict them in a way that is synonymous with blackface for a large segment of the population is a huge mistake that is harmful to part of our player base and harmful to our reputation in the LARP community.

-MS
Mike I have to disagree. There are a good amount of larps out there that have an "adult themed" game along with racism (while I don't agree at all that it should be allowed in the Alliance) that are doing very well for them selves, 100+ pcs with plenty of npcs. They tell their players that it is an adult game with adult themes and if you have an issue with that, don't play their game. I have to respect that.
They only thing that is similar to blackface is just the makeup. Nothing else bears resemblance to it, no exaggeration of any features what so ever, no mimicking or mockery of them at all. DE are actually a respectful and honorable race with usually the best players playing them.
I think we gave to keep in mind of the domino effect. What else are some people going to be offended by?
 

Ruki

Scholar
It's one thing to have a game that is adult and has racism in game (darn dirty smelly dwarves!)

And having an element of the game being racist (blackface).

One is cool, the other, not so much.
 

Muir

Fighter
Even the fantastic racism gets a bit uncomfortable. I recall a few years ago playing with a 'Human Supremacist' character that was a bit on the nose to me as a player.
 
As an actual recommendation for what change to make, I actually suggest making two changes. I know this will be controversial, but it makes a lot of sense.

Change 1: Change Stone Elf makeup to slate gray.
Change 2: Change Dark Elf makeup to white with some darkening around the eyes (last part optional)

This idea basically leans into the concept that Dark Elves avoid the sun / live in places with little sun. In the real world, we know that results in a very pale, almost albino complexion, in general. With this change, they would be called Dark Elves not because of their skin color, but instead because they avoid the light. Stone Elves need to change because two white makeup elves would be confusing. The slate gray complexion simply fits really well with the color that most people think of when they hear the word "stone."

-MS
 

Muir

Fighter
I like that, it's pretty cool and a minimal effort change. I also like that it moves stone elves more towards literal stone and away from cosplaying as Data from TNG.
 

Ragnarok

Scout
Marshal
So I was planning on entering this post but I think I need to drop by to say that I like the idea presented here by MS. That said I'm not explicitly opposed to how things are at the moment but if folks think that dark elves could be pale and Stone Elves could be grey then I'm behind it.
 

kes166

Artisan
Change 1: Change Stone Elf makeup to slate gray.
Change 2: Change Dark Elf makeup to white with some darkening around the eyes (last part optional)

-MS
I don't have a dark elf, but to keep the aesthetic of the dark elf, my vote would be to make them a slate grey color with white eyebrows
dark elf.jpg

I have an Ogre, and I can't really find anything that would work other than green and orcs already have that color. I was thinking a yellow/green color but I can't find any cake makeup of that color. I also suspect any makeup changes to a race would constitute a free race change as well.
 

Darkcrescent

Knight
Chicago Staff
Marshal
Can any Owners chime into if their is any vote or talks going on with this topic. I think if people knew what was going on behind the scenes it may help with the entire thread.
 
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