Rezzies

[Sarah]

^--- That's what I've been trying to say.

 

[Kauss]

Storytelling is not necessary, so your question is not quite accurate. If a player wishes "guiding" to encompass telling a story, they may do so in whatever way the two players find desirable, so long as the rules are followed.

as an added note this is also where IG and ooc cross. IG many people beleve a story has to be told, and may say as much IG. ooc the term is guidence and may involve no storytelling per say.

 

[Balryn]

There's no character to touch... but there *is* a player to touch. (Which is why I tried to be very precise in my wording, by the way.) Mind powers are one of those "you're doing it out of game, so you're doing it in game" things. Because you're touching the player, you're also touching the character.

*shrug* Whatever.

I can see the point, but this interpretation would leave dozens of other times a spirit is available (i.e. player) and has no body (i.e. no character). Mind powers don?t confer the ability to communicate with spirits in any other scenario I?m aware of (?), nor do the rules really infer that you can communicate with other ?critters without bodies? such as gaseous vampires and the like (again ?).

I would also point out that the resurrection section says that the healer is telling a story. It does not refer to the healer in an OOC context, so I don?t believe it is inferring that the story telling or guidance is OOC either. While I understand some of the cool benefits of RP that can be gained by a mental story, it was made a IG story a long time ago because it was abused in several instances. The mental aspect died off along with things like truth, the rules changes to forget-me-not, and charm. If the story or guidance was two-way, then the healer in question could gain information from the spirit regarding what happened or needed to be done at a time critical point. A few bad RPers screwed it for the rest of us. I?d prefer that it was mental and have experienced some awesome RP resurrections, but I?m being devil?s advocate here and not seeing it in the rules.

As far as Jeff?s question about whether or not Healing Arts is ?another ability? that has to be used, I would have to think yep more than not. Read/Write is always on, but healing arts actually has a verbal component to notify it?s usage.

 

[Sarah]

"Roleplaying a resurrection usually involves the healer telling a calming story to the person being resurrected."

This is right out of the book. It says usually.

Here, let me quote it again.

"Roleplaying a resurrection usually involves the healer telling a calming story to the person being resurrected."

This is left open to interpretation. I highly doubt it was done so erroneously.

Also, you can CHOOSE to remember the resurrection or not. You also CANNOT gain information from the spirit about how they died. These things are explicitly stated in the rulebook under the resurrection section. I would highly suggest at this time that you pick up a rulebook and read this section, since you are making assumptions that are incorrect about what the book does and does not say.

 

[Balryn]

If you want to take one line out of context and qoute it twice I'm fine with it, but you just said people are "are making assumptions that are incorrect about what the book does and does not say" and also saying "This is left open to interpretation" in the same logistical train of thought.

The very reason I'm not being condesending towards others is because it rarely, if ever, affects either of my characters. I would however like to debate the "open to interpretation" part and actually find out how people interpret it.

I'm not debating whether or not the resurrection needs to be in the form of a story or not, I've seen resurrections where the healer dances half-clothed around a bonfire, but I am saying that no where in the resurrection section does it imply that the spirit can do anything but sit there. The performing healer can do whatever they want during the resurrection (including dancing, mwwhaha) but the spirit just 'sits there'. It can't talk or communicate, by the rules it's dead until the resurrection is complete.

By this very point, things like mind powers (or any type of mental / dream communication) is pretty much moot. A dead spirit simply can't be the target of any ability or effect, otherwise it blows huge holes in the entire system regarding mind powers, gypsy curse, greater fey curse, formal magic, and all the other 'unusual effects'.

 

[most_precious_blood]

Analogy time with Gid.

prepare for me to try (yet fail) to make sense.

Mind powers: Does it have a physical body/eyes? if no, you can't. if you have some ability to touch spirits/ non corporeal bodies, you could do it if they were immaterial somehow.

Rez stories: The spirit has a consciousness, but it has not returned to the body, which is where they store their mind. I don't think you could alter the mind. Let me geek a bit here; The body is the character's graphic, the mind is the character's program, the spirit is the save state... The mind backs up the tape drive from time to time, so when there's a crash (death) the body can be remade, with the mind intact. (that made sense to at least one of you, admit it.) when dealing with a spirit, you're dealing with the information that needs to be loaded back into the new body the earth circle, spirit, power of an invested healer to rez here, etc. is creating.

If the healer is just walking away, he's not really observing the install

If he's there, and speaking, then whoever is there can see what that character does. If you have some viable way to silently communicate to anyone, then you can, provided that power works on them/in that way.

I had always thought that the spirit is being loaded into the body during the rez, the story is something to soothe the spirit back into the body gently, rather than stuffing it in haphazardly.

Your clothes always store better if you fold them neatly into a bag, rather than just stuffing them in a handful at a time. That's the image I had for guided rez vs void rez.

Remember though, when someone is telling you a story while you have your eyes closed... nobody listening to the same story is going to see what you did.

Rezzers: tell good stories in your 10 minutes of captive audience
Rezzees: Let your imagination go wild on what they're saying to you.

something I always wondered in CA:
If someone has 3 spirits waiting for resurrection, and was telling the first one a story, would the other two remember it?

-Gideon
Always helpful, except in emergencies.

 

[Leyk of Clan Ahas]

Dave and Jeff have hit exactly what I was trying to ask. I'll try to re-word it, if I were a healer, without regard to mental RP abilites or other ruch things, could I guide the spirit with a story in such a way that the story is something that can only be heard by myself and the spirit?

 

[jpariury]

I am saying that no where in the resurrection section does it imply that the spirit can do anything but sit there. The performing healer can do whatever they want during the resurrection (including dancing, mwwhaha) but the spirit just 'sits there'. It can't talk or communicate, by the rules it's dead until the resurrection is complete.

Actually, it doesn't imply in one form or another what the spirit can or cannot do in the context being "guided". Some people like to tell stories that are wannabe Choose Your Own Adventures(TM). Some people like to sit there and look constipated. It is entirely up to the players to decide how they want to react, if at all. If the "guidance" is the form of a call-and-answer, playing pattycake, or whatever else, that is up to the two players directly involved to decide.

A dead spirit simply can't be the target of any ability or effect

*cough*Spirit Farewell*cough*

There may be other plot-specific effects that could do so as well, such as "capturing" a spirit and trapping it in the Gem of Gemmedness, etc.

if I were a healer, could I guide the spirit with a story in such a way that the story is something that can only be heard by myself and the spirit?

As Sarah was saying, and as I said, that is up to you and the player of the character you are guiding.

 

[Balryn]

Actually, it doesn't imply in one form or another what the spirit can or cannot do in the context being "guided". Some people like to tell stories that are wannabe Choose Your Own Adventures(TM). Some people like to sit there and look constipated. It is entirely up to the players to decide how they want to react, if at all. If the "guidance" is the form of a call-and-answer, playing pattycake, or whatever else, that is up to the two players directly involved to decide.

*cough*Spirit Farewell*cough*

There may be other plot-specific effects that could do so as well, such as "capturing" a spirit and trapping it in the Gem of Gemmedness, etc.

As Sarah was saying, and as I said, that is up to you and the player of the character you are guiding.

I'll have to argue that one JP, I don't see anywhere in the resurrection section that says a spirit can do anything in the resurrection. The rules state the healer can tell a story. It says nothing about audience participation. Throughout the book it does state that a spirit cannot interact with the game world in any manner, so it would be a fair leap in intent to suddenly grant the spirit the ability to communicate.

And as an FYI- spirit farewell basically proves the point as it doesn't target a dead spirit in a circle. It targets a permanently dead character that has passed into the abyss for purpose of roleplay, that character must be gone gone. Spirit Farewell can only target permanently dead things (the name of the ritual is an error, as it doesn't have anything to do with spirits)

 

[jpariury]

I'll have to argue that one JP, I don't see anywhere in the resurrection section that says a spirit can do anything in the resurrection. The rules state the healer can tell a story. It says nothing about audience participation. Throughout the book it does state that a spirit cannot interact with the game world in any manner, so it would be a fair leap in intent to suddenly grant the spirit the ability to communicate.

I agree that if the players were communicating game knowledge such as "I was killed by so-and-so at this location", they would be violating the spirit of the rules. My ruling as a marshal, however, would be that two players can craft a story together if they so desire, and that this would be separate

spirit farewell basically proves the point as it doesn't target a dead spirit in a circle

With the final three words, I agree. It does target a dead spirit (According to the scroll I have here).

 

[Balryn]

I agree that if the players were communicating game knowledge such as "I was killed by so-and-so at this location", they would be violating the spirit of the rules. My ruling as a marshal, however, would be that two players can craft a story together if they so desire, and that this would be separate

Can we get that forwarded over to the national rules addendum then? It has always teeter-tottered back and forth of the years and I'd like to see a line actually edited into the book saying the spirit can communicate or participate in the resurrection ceremony (and for debating sake, it would also be good to get a statement in there about whether it can be 'mental' or 'dreamy' so other players may or may not hear it). I don't care either way as far as the storytelling, but I hate leaving shoddy rules with statements open to interpretation.

 

[Polare]

So to clarify a few things that have come up in this thread:

1. Physical contact is always an iffy thing especially in combat, but as Sarah noted is explicitly required for mental abilities. Basically, if it's outside of combat, make sure it's consensual. If it's in combat, it's a flat "no". Yes, this does mean that if someone is trying to use mental abilities offensively on an enemy in the middle of a wave battle, this is an unsafe situation. Use your judgement and if in question ask a marshal.

2. The only things specified on the Resurrections page (pg. 20) as to exactly what roleplaying procedure happens are that "... they may then resurrect that spirit ...", "... If no one is available with Healing Arts, then the spirit can resurrect on its own once the Invested member has begun the resurrection. However, in-game, this is emotionally painful to the recipient.", and "Roleplaying out a resurrection usually involves the healer telling a calming story to the person being resurrected. This is usually tailored toward the character's race. Each and every story should abide by NERO rules and any problems should be reported to a Marshal."

So what does this mean? It means that:

-If you undergo an 'unguided' resurrection (no one with Healing Arts roleplays the resurrection with you), then your character should come back to life in a confused and angry state.

-So long as each roleplaying encounter between a character with Healing Arts and a spirit "abide by NERO rules", precisely what that roleplaying encounter entails is completely up to the two players performing the roleplaying encounter. I see nothing that says that either (a) the RP is visible to outsiders or (b) the RP is not visible to outsiders. I also see nothing about whether the resurrectee may interact with the resurrector (the closest one might come to arguing about this is that "should abide by NERO rules"... but spirits are regularly interacted with in other ways; for example, they may choose to reject specific healers or circles; Plot effects can influence them; they take as long to travel to a Circle as it takes to physically walk there, etc. etc. - basically, they are not 100% immune to interaction with the environment). To me, this means that the exact format of the RP is up to the two players involved so long as NERO rules are abided by - you can't communicate who killed you, how you were killed, where you were killed, "specific character plans to resurrect in specfici Circles based on means of death", etc. The healer can offer to perform a resurrection in a certain manner, and the spirit may reject that specific healer if they wish. Beyond that, if the two want to do a dance, tell a story, sit and meditate, or sing loudly in a manner that everyone around the circle can hear (well, they'll hear the healer's side at least) that's up to them.

It would seem prudent, of course, to try to let others know what's happening. If you want to tell a story that only the spirit can hear, then don't shout at the top of your lungs - or even in a normal speaking voice. There may be people outside the cabin listening in who don't know that you're intending this story to only be heard by the recipient. As always, be reasonable about what you're intending to do here.

Did I miss any?

-Bryan

 

[Polare]

I don't care either way as far as the storytelling, but I hate leaving shoddy rules with statements open to interpretation.

If only we didn't have any of those to worry about in the NERO rulebook...

My viewpoint on NERO is that it is generally a permissive ruleset. In other words, if something is not prohibited, it is allowable - much of the rulebook is phrased in "You may not X" terms, as opposed to "You may Y and only Y". This leads to plenty of problems, but also makes for a much freer game. The rulebook does not explicitly have to specify "You can skin a rabbit and get a rabbit skin" for you to attempt to do this - that's left up to your plot team when you go to them and say "Hey, I'm skinning this rabbit, I've got X levels of Craftsman Tanning, do I get a tagged rabbit skin?". On the other hand, the rulebook does specify that you may not thrust with a staff. It does not explicitly specify that you may swing with a staff (it says you may "wield" one), but it's generally inferred from the other sections (and there are some restrictions on how the swinging is done).

Players are explicitly asked to abide by the spirit of the rules and the guidelines posted in the book. While these are not always clear, it is usually obvious that things like jumping down on someone's back to get an Assassinate off from the top of a roof is an unsafe thing even though it's not explicitly prohibited. Similarly, if you want to smack someone over the head and keep them unconscious for 48 hours straight during a weekend event, you should not be surprised if the other player goes to NPC and leaves you out alone in the middle of the woods for the next 10 hours, and someone comes and checks regularly that you are not forgetting to waylay every 10 minutes. NERO is about all the players having fun. Sometimes characters get killed, robbed, maimed, tortured, etc., and there is nothing wrong with your character using the rules to get where they want to in the world, but this doesn't mean that a player abusing the rules is OK. It's not a black and white line, it's a thick grey one and gives both the freedom of the ruleset and most of the problems that come up between various players.

Some things that are questionable are very reasonable to put in the rulebook, since it's not clear as to the intent. This very well might be something in that category, or at least worth a "clarification of intent" on the HQ boards for ARC to answer. Until that happens, though, there (a) doesn't seem to be anything prohibiting the spirit interacting during the resurrection (there are some things that are explicitly spelled out about the spirit being able to have at least some choices during resurrection) and most importantly (b) it doesn't seem to violate the intent of a "roleplaying encounter" during the resurrection. If one wanted to be really picky it can be pointed out that many cultures have a tradition of interactive stories - that are not just a passive "I went here and did this" but involve many people and have audience participation. That doesn't make it any less of a story.

The intent of the RP during resurrection seems to be (as best I can ascertain, anyways!) to entertain both the healer and the spirit and give them something valuable to add to their character's roleplaying history. Letting the spirit interact for the story can certainly add to this experience.

-Bryan

 

[Balryn]

I like that answer B. I understand the open-ended nature of many of the rules, but it does lead to some creative bending by more abusive players. I don't mind debating this one, because I feel it is probably one of the more seclusive rules that would take a fairly significant abuse at just the right time to break.

I guess whats digging around my head is when they purposely cut off some questionable RP instances (the truth, charm, enslave, etc). There was a time back when RPing a resurrection was all sorts of cool (and could even be done with multiple spirits), but someone in the NW chapter (and I believe in the east coast at almost the same time) had a resurrection that questionable information was relayed during the ten minutes, the healer bolted out of the circle and joined a combat currently in progress with vital info.

I'm not saying it was right, in fact it was probably the essence of metagaming if the truth could be drug out, but the rules allowed for it. A short while later it became shelved with the idea that certain RP situations were too open for abuse.

With that said, I completely disagree with the original decision back then. I think the RP effects are cool and if you can't trust a player to RP, then they probably shouldn't be playing NERO. RP is the basic building block of the game ya know?

For a long time Balryn had mental powers in several campaigns (and I was doing a good number of resurrections at the time), and it was pretty clear I couldn't use mind-powers. Whether or not it is true anymore I could care less.

I'm not trying to be arguementative. Debating them here is far easier instead of at an event and having to adjudicate them later, and I wish the ARC was more active in correcting the ruleset on some of these very old topics so that all chapters interpreted the same way. (Its stuff like this that Seattle/NW/Oregon/Cali always had different viewpoints on)