[.11] Riposting Strike

Simon

Adept
There will be a rain of 500 body and dooms all over alliance....I did a build and got 4-5 eviscerates for one buy of the skill.

Joe Siegel
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
I’m kinda interested in the new Solunari fighters that are almost sure to happen.
 

Melimir

Newbie
Asheville Staff
Can't wait to stand behind my friendly neighborhood archer who bought 5 ripostes and only one eviscerate and hit him in the back for 1 normal 5 times which he evades so he can machine gun off 5 eviscerates for free without actually buying them.

No one else thought this could be abused? I see this easily causing more problems than the current version.
 

Ruki

Scholar
Can't wait to stand behind my friendly neighborhood archer who bought 5 ripostes and only one eviscerate and hit him in the back for 1 normal 5 times which he evades so he can machine gun off 5 eviscerates for free without actually buying them.

No one else thought this could be abused? I see this easily causing more problems than the current version.
But how many people are actually going to abuse/power game like that?

And if PCs can do it, NPCs can do it too.
 

MondayMcGee

Scholar
San Francisco Staff
That also means that he isn’t using those evades for actually evading enemy attacks, so not exactly free.
 

Gandian Ravenscroft

Knight
Chicago Staff
Marshal
But how many people are actually going to abuse/power game like that?
I want to believe that people won't abuse a mechanical advantage opportunity like this, but it unfortunately is just not the way things will pan out. If a powergaming opportunity exists, there will sadly always be an ever-growing number of people that will use it to its fullest extent, using the argument of "the rules totally allow me to do this" as validation. Even if it just starts as one person, others will start to see them doing it and get inspired to do it themselves. Even if there are people that see it as cheesy and don't do it themselves, they'll start to feel/get left behind (metaphorically, and possibly literally) when less-concerned players around them start using that strategy, making them feel less valuable on the field because they're reluctant to give in to a powergaming opportunity, until they eventually do give in and join the popular movement in order to feel on-par with everyone else. From there, it will just become The Way Things Are Done™ all over the place. Sigh. Oh well.

That said, I do agree that there's a lot of potential for this to get abused very quickly. A skill that lets you use some other daily skill without expending it is a recipe for people to use their highest-impact skills over and over, completely allowing people to bypass the prerequisite structures designed to limit the amount a person can typically use that high-impact skill. I appreciate the general concept that Riposting Strike is going for, but in its current incarnation, I think it's going to get out of hand.
 

norman b

Squire
Marshal
Can't wait to stand behind my friendly neighborhood archer who bought 5 ripostes and only one eviscerate and hit him in the back for 1 normal 5 times which he evades so he can machine gun off 5 eviscerates for free without actually buying them.

No one else thought this could be abused? I see this easily causing more problems than the current version.
Go ahead. That NPC just respawns. Great. The PC feels awesome for 5 shots (which can be blocked by a shield FYI) and then they are spent. Cool. Now they can just throw normal arrows. That's all of 5 minutes of battle? Not too worried about that happening twice an event.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
Racial Evade - 6 xp
Riposte - 5 xp

If you hit your friend in the back to waste his Evades just so he can eviscerate, that means he has an 11 XP Eviscerate.

That’s not even powergaming, that’s just wasted resources.
 

Alkalin3

Administrator
Chief Technology Officer
South Michigan Staff
Marshal
Riposting Strike is still once every 30 xp spent. Capstone skills like Doom Blow or Eviscerating Strike are still are 60 xp spent. So you could double your offense at the expense of your evades.

I think it's important to remember that 2.0 is a bit more per day based as a fighting class. The cheapest way to do this is with doom blows with evades for an additional 7 xp per shot (3 for the evade if you're a rogue and 4 for the riposte). As a rogue you're paying a penalty for each riposting strike (Since they're marshal skills and that doesn't count as xp spent) Is this good? Totally is. Is it a big deal? No. Not really. I think the better strategy is to intentionally take a hit then it is to worry about a friend hitting you. Just tank the thing (via evades) so you can worry about landing hits instead of blocking. You still have to land the hit. And that can be hard (especially if you're trying to wait for you friend to hit you so you can time it all right).
 

Melimir

Newbie
Asheville Staff
The thing is, since we are giving feedback on this iteration of the rules, shouldn't (major) potential avenues for (rules) abuse be highlighted and corrected?
 

Tantarus

Squire
I am not sure I call spending alot of build for extra skills really "Abuse".

That said I do look forward to having 15 eviscerates a day.

The other think people havent really mentioned is you can get 1 of alot of misc strikes and generate many more of them via riposte which gives alot of flexibility at a cheaper cost.
 
I am not sure I call spending alot of build for extra skills really "Abuse".

That said I do look forward to having 15 eviscerates a day.

The other think people havent really mentioned is you can get 1 of alot of misc strikes and generate many more of them via riposte which gives alot of flexibility at a cheaper cost.
To be fair, if you will have 15 Eviscerates a day, then your character already qualified to have 5 Eviscerates a day. 10 more might seem like a lot, but even Eviscerates have diminishing returns. I personally don't feel that you have suddenly disrupted the balance of the game with this trick.

-MS
 

Polare

Count
Alliance Rules
Moderator
Seattle Staff
To answer some of the questions that have come up here:

Riposting Strike does not use up the offensive skills triggered on the followup attack, so there's no need to Meditate those back.

If you trigger a Riposting Strike and miss with the subsequent attack, you *can* Meditate the Riposting Strike back. Note that you may NOT meditate the Guard back no matter what.

You -can- combine multiple (valid) attacks into a single swing with Riposte, assuming they are swings that you could normally combine (such as Doom and Assassinate).

We will look at updating the wording to make these clear.

Please note that this is a skill which we will pay special attention to in the feedback from the Playtest weekends, and it will undergo extra scrutiny to see if it needs tweaking.

-Bryan Gregory
ARC
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
Wait, for free using 2 or more skills?
Uh, yes, please clarify this, because if so, I'm gonna need to review some build expenditures.
 

Polare

Count
Alliance Rules
Moderator
Seattle Staff
There exists a very limited number of offensive skills which can be combined. Basically, you can combine "something that adds damage" with "something that changes the type of damage"; the few skills that can do this are explicitly called out in their descriptions as being able to be combined with another attack (some like Doom Blow explicitly say Slay or Assassinate; the wording could probably be standardized across these). This includes (and is entirely limited to):

Change the amount of damage:
Slay
Assassinate

Change the type of damage:
Precise Blow
Foundation Blow
Magistarium Blow
Doom Blow

Technically, you could add Opportunistic Attack, but this would have no additional effect as Riposte already ignores positioning requirements.

-Bryan
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
100 Doom?

I’m literally 10 XP away from 300 Doom.

Though I guess when it’s “Doom,” the damage matters less.
 

Polare

Count
Alliance Rules
Moderator
Seattle Staff
In about 95% of cases, "300 Doom" is not functionally any different from "500 Body" in real terms against NPCs (and against PCs, you're probably equal odds on whether they have a Cloak Curse, Resist Curse, or Resolute).
 
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