Ritual System Update Discussion!

James Trotta

Spellsword
Diversity Committee
I'd be suspicious of the fighter who said, my character is really a celestial ritualist at heart thanks to these new rules. Taking advantage of rules isn't so hot, unless the new rules can help you better express your character concept. Rather than letting everyone forge, if the owners allowed people with valid character reasons to explain why the new rules mean their character concept can be expressed better with some different skills and then gave forges case by case, I think that would be cool.

Honestly I don't see how someone who doesn't have read magic can now say that this rit stuff makes celestial a better expression of their character concept but then again I don't know their character concepts.

I do have a celestial scholar who might have been built differently plus a celestial rogue who might have gone more adept-like or something - haven't really thought it through yet. But certainly the new rules not affecting everyone doesn't change that some people could now better realize their character concepts by changing their builds around.

Dan Nickname Beshers said:
On the contrary.

My point is that the ritual updates aren't the same kind of super, game-wide changes which resulted in the last global free forge. I could see allowing scholars specifically, or any character with a current rank of formal a limited opportunity to spend their build a little differently, but I really doubt that the owners were looking to have a bunch of people go from rogue to scholar to take advantage of the new elemental burst rules.
 
People should probably just chill till the next episode, with regard to asking for spirit forges.

There are MANY other submissions that got tabled, and may still be addressed, later this year.

Gary
 

Fynwei

Squire
I just want to double-check, as some friends and I had some slight confusion over misunderstanding of the new rules of Sacrifice...
Are the changes posted regarding Sacrifice are replacing the old Sacrifice use?
OR
Are the changes posted regarding Sacrifice adding to the old Sacrifice use?
 

Beverly Byers

Fighter
Traverse City Staff
Are the changes posted regarding Sacrifice are replacing the old Sacrifice use?
OR
Are the changes posted regarding Sacrifice adding to the old Sacrifice use?
They are replacing the old rules.
 
The changes look really cool, I have been reading thru them and have a few questions regarding the constructs and how they changed:
I didnt see in the original post or in this thread. (perhaps I missed it and someone can point me to it)

What are the base Golem stats without the point structure?
Are they still immune to Necro, alchemy?
How much body do you start with as a base? (the points structure states + 100 body max, but doesnt give you the starting points and data)

Thanks!
 
It was posted that they start with 50 body. Since it's not listed anywhere, I think it's fairly safe to suspect they will retain all the standard construct immunities and weaknesses.
 

Beverly Byers

Fighter
Traverse City Staff
As I stated in the rules forum, the posting I made was a "cliff notes" version meant to give a "basic" knowledge of the changes to the ritual system. In depth information can be found on the indvidual scrolls and was not included in the original announcement for the same reason the exact scroll verbiage is not included in the rule book. However, the point information is already available so here is the base that it adds to:

All Golems created will have a base of 50 Body, claws (one handed; IE. Long/Short, Short/Short), the following construct immunities (necromancy, healing, gift, poison, paralysis, alteration, command, waylay), and vulnerabilities (15 Damage from Shatter effects, 30 Damage from Destroy effects, Destroyed at 0 Body, may only be healed by ritual).
Beverly Byers
Alliance Ritual Committee Chair
 

Inaryn

Knight
Beverly Byers said:
As I stated in the rules forum, the posting I made was a "cliff notes" version meant to give a "basic" knowledge of the changes to the ritual system. In depth information can be found on the indvidual scrolls and was not included in the original announcement for the same reason the exact scroll verbiage is not included in the rule book. However, the point information is already available so here is the base that it adds to:

All Golems created will have a base of 50 Body, claws (one handed; IE. Long/Short, Short/Short), the following construct immunities (necromancy, healing, gift, poison, paralysis, alteration, command, waylay), and vulnerabilities (15 Damage from Shatter effects, 30 Damage from Destroy effects, Destroyed at 0 Body, may only be healed by ritual).
Beverly Byers
Alliance Ritual Committee Chair
So, I have a 25th level earth templar. Being able to whack stuff decently and keep myself going was kind of the earth templar thing. After the event I just went to this weekend though I find myself very seriously wondering why I'm not a 25th level celestial scholar in a golem. I kind of feel like I just got whacked off at the knees. :unsure:
 

RiddickDale

Squire
Moderator
Public Relations Committee
Being a 25th level Earth Templar doesn't require a scroll, a catalyst, an extension ritual and "Go rez if you reach 0 body" as a character flaw.

The elemental burst buff when combined with the nerf to golems in general is still a net loss over a well geared character in a Quicksilver Soldier.

The grass is always greener.... remember that.

Stephen
 
RiddickDale said:
The grass is always greener.... remember that.

Stephen
That's why you go for both schools. :thumbsup:
 

Inaryn

Knight
RiddickDale said:
Being a 25th level Earth Templar doesn't require a scroll, a catalyst, an extension ritual and "Go rez if you reach 0 body" as a character flaw.

The elemental burst buff when combined with the nerf to golems in general is still a net loss over a well geared character in a Quicksilver Soldier.

The grass is always greener.... remember that.

Stephen
It doesn't beat the immunities you get as a golem, and the scroll I got to look at said "go back to your body if you reach 0 body" NOT "go rez if you reach 0 body."

It might be a net loss, but that doesn't negate the fact that I still feel like I got punched in the gut after playing with it.
 

Beverly Byers

Fighter
Traverse City Staff
It doesn't beat the immunities you get as a golem, and the scroll I got to look at said "go back to your body if you reach 0 body" NOT "go rez if you reach 0 body."
A) Was that one of the old scrolls? and B) if it wasn't then the ability to do that costs 20 pts from the pool, which is a big downgrade to the overall power of the golem.
 
Bev Meyers wrote:
A) Was that one of the old scrolls? and B) if it wasn't then the ability to do that costs 20 pts from the pool, which is a big downgrade to the overall power of the golem

__________________________________________________________________

before the big magic change ( last rules change which involved character forging)
The golem scrolls stated that so if you popped you started a death count at your body.
After the big magic change you dont go back to start a death count at your body.. do not pass go, do not collect 200 dollars .. go straight to the circle to rez.

The 20 point cost is high but its something worth considering. (I might have put it at 15) but still having it as a choice is cool. :thumbsup:
 
Not sure what's up with that; every scroll I've seen going back eight years to the first time I looked at a construct scroll said that if the construct hits zero, you go straight to the earth circle.
 
Any class of character can get put into a golem.

Celestialists can just do it with high magic, without the use of a ritual scroll.

The down grading of golems makes using one less advantages than before, so I don't understand a new feeling of being "punched in the gut." If anything, I'd hope you feel less marginalized.

Also, as an earth templar, you can access Rebirth, your old fashioned, garden variety, death proofing, high magic ability.

I'm thinking of trying to spirit forge into a dual school templar with Rebirth and a golem. But then it'll be difficult to fight safely with all the trumpets blarring, divine light and floating slightly above ground as virgins throw white tulip petals onto the battlefield before me.
 

Mobius

Squire
Petal-throwing virgins are not as much of a battle-hindrance as you'd think. Just so ya know ;)
 

Avaran

Baron
RiddickDale said:
Being a 25th level Earth Templar doesn't require a scroll, a catalyst, an extension ritual and "Go rez if you reach 0 body" as a character flaw.

The elemental burst buff when combined with the nerf to golems in general is still a net loss over a well geared character in a Quicksilver Soldier.

The grass is always greener.... remember that.

Stephen

Inaryn makes a great point, one that I do think can be dismissed with a "grass is greener" response. Look at the rough numbers...

A 263 build C-caster (I believe 264 is the ceiling for 25th level), with a +3 Wand, has 948 points of self-healing just from wand charges. And that is not counting the spells they have in memory. AND they can choose, without an artificially enforced penalty, to use that healing for damage. You can argue that there's an opportunity penalty, but I'd suggest that's more of a hypothetical cost depending on where you play.

A 25th level earth scholar can't match that amount of healing/staying power, let alone an Earth Templar (which is kind of the idea behind an earth templar; you remember the Templar Tuck? ), nor does it take into account all of the other benefits you get from being in a golem; and I think for a smart player, the drawbacks are fairly minimal.

Also, Rebirth is not a guaranteed defense against a res, just as being in a golem isn't a guarantee that you're going to be unstoppable. But it sure helps. =P
 

RiddickDale

Squire
Moderator
Public Relations Committee
Oh I don't necessarily disagree.

But, considering two owners (TWO) have said, "Chill... Celestial was gimped so we fixed it... we aren't done yet" I can say that complaining about imbalances now is inappropriate.

Earth has been the most powerful school for the last 8 years. Lets give Celestialists their 8 months or fame eh?

Stephen
National PR
 

Avaran

Baron
RiddickDale said:
Oh I don't necessarily disagree.

But, considering two owners (TWO) have said, "Chill... Celestial was gimped so we fixed it... we aren't done yet" I can say that complaining about imbalances now is inappropriate.

Earth has been the most powerful school for the last 8 years. Lets give Celestialists their 8 months or fame eh?

Stephen
National PR
I can't speak for anyone else, but I am not complaining, I am just making observations. I have no complaint about general power level; each class should have its own flavor of power in various situations or against different things. I'm good with that, it's good for the game; I think it's needed to some degree, otherwise class choice wouldn't necessarily matter, ya know?

Being underpowered for a long time is not justification or reason enough to allow for being "over-powered" any more than someone saying, "You were over-powered for years, it's your turn now to be under-powered! We had to suck it up, now you do!" That isn't fair to anyone. We're all on the same side, why would we, as players, want our friends to feel bad/terrible when we ourselves didn't like that feeling? Feeling that way sometimes is okay, but that should be plot making that happen, not just the game mechanics.
 

phedre

Squire
Unfortunately, figuring out how to balance it to everyone's agreement isn't going to happen... someone will always find something to point out. But the process is one of trial-and-error.

And as for those numbers, can I ask what they were in terms of column width, rit ranks, and other skills? Because I've found that people are rarely pure-class unless spirit forged, or low level and haven't had the opportunity yet to waste build. ;) Those numbers also depend on the acquisition of 3 scrolls (2 if there's enough high magic in there for storing for the weekend), a catalyst, a whole lot of sticks, and the rits succeeding. 6 scrolls, if you want to extend the golem, the wand and the spirit store. It's a perfect storm that few people ever have happen... I should know, I'm on a mostly celestial team that doesn't have golems and +3 wands falling out of our treasury.

I'm happier about the fact that we can no longer have a 200 body, 5-phases, monster strength 5, immune to "yes" golem running around, and that there is now the ability to tailor golems. I can also say, as a C-Caster, I will probably never put myself in one. I'll go in on rit casting other peoples' so I have the possibility, and the ability to order it around if there's no one in it, but it's not the end-all for my character. That's like saying the goal of every fighter is to swing 30s. Or the goal of every rogue is to make enough alchemy to fumigate a room. Or even that every earth caster wants a 12-block. There will always be the person who buys every PTD-disarm, or every evade/dodge, or wants a 20-19-18-17-16-15-14-13-12 earth.

I'm more excited that there are basically RP bonuses, and rit-rank bonuses, for all casters now. We ALL win on that.
 
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