Ritual System Update Discussion!

Lurin

Duke
Avaran said:
Inaryn makes a great point, one that I do think can be dismissed with a "grass is greener" response. Look at the rough numbers...

A 263 build C-caster (I believe 264 is the ceiling for 25th level), with a +3 Wand, has 948 points of self-healing just from wand charges. And that is not counting the spells they have in memory. AND they can choose, without an artificially enforced penalty, to use that healing for damage. You can argue that there's an opportunity penalty, but I'd suggest that's more of a hypothetical cost depending on where you play.

A 25th level earth scholar can't match that amount of healing/staying power, let alone an Earth Templar (which is kind of the idea behind an earth templar; you remember the Templar Tuck? ), nor does it take into account all of the other benefits you get from being in a golem; and I think for a smart player, the drawbacks are fairly minimal.

Also, Rebirth is not a guaranteed defense against a res, just as being in a golem isn't a guarantee that you're going to be unstoppable. But it sure helps. =P
Like other folks said this isn't an apples to apples comparison as it's 4 rits and a catalyst to none so far (assuming TWO extenders) or a lot of in game value for a year of uberness. The healer isn't placing a big chunk of a group's (or very active single player's I suppose) treasury on the line. You've also got more potential for heal, but a smaller ability to recover from a concentrated assault as you shatter when down to 0, where earth templar man can be healed from 0/negatives, lifed, and has rebirth to fall back on.
 
Ya, what Lauren said.

If you want to rock out in a construct, go for it. Build one. Have a ritualist spell store you into it. Learn Read Magic. Gobbie out, buy or make a bunch of flame bolt scrolls, stick them on the back of a shield, and go to town.

You could do that as an artisan. In fact, I double dog dare you.

ALL OF YOU!
 

Avaran

Baron
Lurin said:
Like other folks said this isn't an apples to apples comparison as it's 4 rits and a catalyst to none so far (assuming TWO extenders) or a lot of in game value for a year of uberness. The healer isn't placing a big chunk of a group's (or very active single player's I suppose) treasury on the line. You've also got more potential for heal, but a smaller ability to recover from a concentrated assault as you shatter when down to 0, where earth templar man can be healed from 0/negatives, lifed, and has rebirth to fall back on.
From the character concept perspective, I feel it is a relevant comparison.

An Earth Templar is usually someone who can swing for a decent amount of damage, and has some spells to keep themselves going (healing, removing negative status effects, etc.). It's a pretty classic/basic character concept.

A C-caster in a golem takes that character concept and, if you'll pardon the expression, takes a big fat dump all over it.

I am not saying that is good or bad, I am merely making an observation (the character concepts are the same) and stating my opinion (one is far, far superior to the other in every way, despite the stated "drawbacks"), and you are more than welcome to continue to disagree. :) I won't take it personally, you're entitled to your opinion. To conclude my parenthetical statement, simply being in a golem is often enough to save a character from having to need a life spell, a rebirth, or being healed up from 0/negative. If you are never in those situations, you don't need those things.

As for the character build I used for my example:

OHE
RW
R/magic
9-9-9-9-9-9-9-8-8
10 levels of formal
263 build (25th level)
 

phedre

Squire
I don't know how realistic that build expenditure is. I'll use my primary as an example, human scholar, 210 build:

OHE
Staff
r/w
r/magic
1st aid
healing arts
4-4-4-4-4-4-4-4-4 celestial
4-3-1 earth
21 ranks Rit
1 CO

Give me another 54 build, and here's what she'd have (subject to pending possible race change requirements):
+7 ranks of rit
+5 COs
make the Earth a 4-3-2-1
Herbal Lore
Alchemy 2

I thought about going dual-school. Might, if I lose interest in the ritual thing eventually, that's what Spirit Forges are for, making sure everyone's having a good time. Now, with "buy enough rit and beneficially flaw most of what you cast, and supercharge it for a weekend to give me a good time RPing and that guy a bonus for the weekend," I'll be casting all the rits people want. (For a price of course... my PCs a mercenary little wretch...)

I wouldn't store into a golem with that card. It makes no sense for that character, as much as I as a player would enjoy it. And golems are scary to be in. You get popped, you insta-res. No rebirth, no hope of a life spell. You get hit with a DFM Celestial: target Spirit Store, and you go back to your body while your golem stands there and gets popped and you're out of game for a while. You eat an oblit, a shatter spirit, or enough of someone coming at you with a few PTD skills (or just a good fighter who swings 12s) and you're dying and taking a huge chunk of the treasure you've worked, bargained, stolen and begged to get with you. Hope you don't get hit with a big explosive trap or a vengeance. Shatters and Destroys? Those add up fast. We joke around in game that golems are expensive, often shiny, coffins.

I wanted to play a celestial caster before the last rules change... granted, I was still pretty low level, but I didn't change a single thing on my card for the free forge. I wanted to play it, despite fully realizing that it was a nerfed class. For the most part, we are still "one fight and I'm done," or "I'm going to kill that guy, really really thoroughly. Now I'm going to go feed people potions or be bait for the rogues to draw stuff out with." Now I get a little extra damage to throw, which I'd gladly give up if my dragon's breaths were as cool as they sound.

Just because one possible end-game desire for half a class got a tweak doesn't mean there needs to be a huge revamp. Maybe a few things need adjusting, but the disparity between two halves of the same class needed to decrease, and did.
 

jpariury

Duke
Gregor is by and large an undead-hunting type. I gotta say, golems are a huge game changer, especially with the customization available now, to the point that I really wish I had gone Celestial with G. I feel that Wands were a good change to rebalance the Earth/Celestial system. It kept the schools distinct and effective within their systems. As an end-game target, golems are far and away better than anything going on in the Earth side. Immunity to necro is only available via Rit of Woe at its hardest casting, and only lasts one night. Golems get you immune to necro, immune to alteration as "freebies".

There is no Earth endgame equivalent. Nothing will make you as bad-*** at fighting undead as a golem body will.
 

Morai

Scholar
So now that any PC put into a golem can buy multiple resist magics, does that mean that having more than 1 doesn't break the game anymore? My DE would love to finally buy his second.

~Joe
 

Polare

Count
Alliance Rules
Moderator
Seattle Staff
Avaran said:
Lurin said:
Like other folks said this isn't an apples to apples comparison as it's 4 rits and a catalyst to none so far (assuming TWO extenders) or a lot of in game value for a year of uberness. The healer isn't placing a big chunk of a group's (or very active single player's I suppose) treasury on the line. You've also got more potential for heal, but a smaller ability to recover from a concentrated assault as you shatter when down to 0, where earth templar man can be healed from 0/negatives, lifed, and has rebirth to fall back on.
From the character concept perspective, I feel it is a relevant comparison.

An Earth Templar is usually someone who can swing for a decent amount of damage, and has some spells to keep themselves going (healing, removing negative status effects, etc.). It's a pretty classic/basic character concept.

A C-caster in a golem takes that character concept and, if you'll pardon the expression, takes a big fat dump all over it.
I'm not convinced of that personally :)

Here's how I see it. An Earth Templar is a *MUCH MUCH* more friendly team character. I built my Earth Templar around this concept - he's a jerk but he's just too darn useful as a teammate for people to not consider him when going somewhere. He can both defend and heal others on the team. If he goes down, someone else can Cure Light him and he gets back up at full effectiveness. My C caster with a golem is very different. He's incredibly self-sufficient, but not nearly so good for the team. He can stand in the way of stuff, and beat things around with spells, but he can't heal others and others can't heal him in the same way a "living" guy can be healed (and he can't be yo-yo'd up and down). The two have different roles on a team and I can't say that I see one as negating the role of the other. For their levels, the Earth Templar is much more useful to the team as a whole but is much more limited offensively. In fact, I can name several Earth Templars who I consider "primary healers" for the areas they play in - something that nobody would say about a Celestial caster unless the entire town is in golems (and they're all healed by the same elements). I just see them as different roles entirely, not the same thing.

Now, JP *does* have a point about golems being very effective against the Undead - to a point. They're great defensively, but not so great offensively. They don't have Purifys, Destroy Undeads, or the equivalents to throw - Wands and Dragon's Breaths don't cut it the same way. In fact, with Command, Binding, and anything except extreme quantities of damage basically useless against high APL undead, Prison is all they have for offense. Earth casters are much more likely to be set up for offense against those Undead, with a Destruction-Destroy Undead/Earth Storm combos making the damage actually worth it, as well as Purifys for the instant takedown and Life/healing to keep their teammates on their feet longer.

I'd love to see enhanced High Magic for Earth/Necromancy as the next target of "neat stuff" to add, now that we've got wands and a better Elemental Burst for Celestialists (I really do consider Rebirth and Spirit Store relatively equivalent, honestly, as one requires an expensive MI and the other just *works*). Make the Earth healing pool something like it should be, add some awesome Necro abilities, and give them some High Magic that makes them well-protected against Necromancy and/or Earth for the logistics period (a limited Rit of Woe or the necromancy version) and I think we're "there", wherever "there" is :)

-Bryan
 

James Trotta

Spellsword
Diversity Committee
I don't see wand or magic storm damage being useless against undead at all. Obviously a destruction makes it much sweeter but once the destruction lands the celestial caster (golem or no) is probably stronger offensively than the earth caster (though if your team were all golems the earth caster could start freely chucking away his morts and purifies). An earth blade item makes any golem a serious threat as well. And that new elemental burst damage stuff from these new rules can be big enough for undead to feel some pain with or without a destruction applied.

I do, however, think all this is reasonable. Well maybe not the high powered golems but generally speaking, celestial casters should be better at dealing damage than earth casters and if that includes against undead I am fine with it.
Polare said:
Now, JP *does* have a point about golems being very effective against the Undead - to a point. They're great defensively, but not so great offensively. They don't have Purifys, Destroy Undeads, or the equivalents to throw - Wands and Dragon's Breaths don't cut it the same way. In fact, with Command, Binding, and anything except extreme quantities of damage basically useless against high APL undead, Prison is all they have for offense. Earth casters are much more likely to be set up for offense against those Undead, with a Destruction-Destroy Undead/Earth Storm combos making the damage actually worth it, as well as Purifys for the instant takedown and Life/healing to keep their teammates on their feet longer.

-Bryan
 

RiddickDale

Squire
Moderator
Public Relations Committee
Once that celestial caster hops into a golem... their evocation changes to much needed self healing.

Sure an un-golemed Celestialist would be able to bring on the pain, but as soon as they step into their E frame their entire column has to change.

With that said... high APL undead ROTFLOL at dragon's breaths even with a destruction up (Shoot... some of them LOL at Cure Morts being thrown at them). So Brian's points are valid.

Stephen
National PR
 

Tyson

Scholar
Gettysburg Staff
Maybe the problem is just the "healed by <element>" option?

Note: I'm 100% unqualified to speak on the subject, since I know nothing of golems. But it seems that this is the cornerstone of every argument that golems are overpowered, or overshadowing earth casters. It turns their big damage into big healing, so they get the best of both worlds with versatility.

Also, wand healing in combat is for chumps. "100 Elemental Flame" (thanks Elemental Burst!) and I'm back in the game.

Of course, I have no idea if this would be horribly crippling to the golem community (heh, should totally be a "Construct Quarter" in major cities) but perhaps additional healing options specific to constructs would mitigate this. Healed to full by Prison is a good example. Maybe a High Magic ability to self-heal in a golem, like the current Healer's Resolve, or add a few Repair spells for celestial casters, or allow some healing by any Eldritch Force spell.
 
Tyson said:
Maybe the problem is just the "healed by <element>" option?

Note: I'm 100% unqualified to speak on the subject, since I know nothing of golems. But it seems that this is the cornerstone of every argument that golems are overpowered, or overshadowing earth casters. It turns their big damage into big healing, so they get the best of both worlds with versatility.

Also, wand healing in combat is for chumps. "100 Elemental Flame" (thanks Elemental Burst!) and I'm back in the game.

Of course, I have no idea if this would be horribly crippling to the golem community (heh, should totally be a "Construct Quarter" in major cities) but perhaps additional healing options specific to constructs would mitigate this. Healed to full by Prison is a good example. Maybe a High Magic ability to self-heal in a golem, like the current Healer's Resolve, or add a few Repair spells for celestial casters, or allow some healing by any Eldritch Force spell.
Make Shatter and Destroy reversible?
"I summon a force to shatter you!"
"Well, then I channel a force to repair you. And by you I mean me."
"Curses! I summon a force to DESTROY you!"
"Yikes. I channel a force to restore you."
"Gah!"
 

Gilwing

Baron
Alliance Logistics
Dan Nickname Beshers said:
Tyson said:
Maybe the problem is just the "healed by <element>" option?

Note: I'm 100% unqualified to speak on the subject, since I know nothing of golems. But it seems that this is the cornerstone of every argument that golems are overpowered, or overshadowing earth casters. It turns their big damage into big healing, so they get the best of both worlds with versatility.

Also, wand healing in combat is for chumps. "100 Elemental Flame" (thanks Elemental Burst!) and I'm back in the game.

Of course, I have no idea if this would be horribly crippling to the golem community (heh, should totally be a "Construct Quarter" in major cities) but perhaps additional healing options specific to constructs would mitigate this. Healed to full by Prison is a good example. Maybe a High Magic ability to self-heal in a golem, like the current Healer's Resolve, or add a few Repair spells for celestial casters, or allow some healing by any Eldritch Force spell.
Make Shatter and Destroy reversible?
"I summon a force to shatter you!"
"Well, then I channel a force to repair you. And by you I mean me."
"Curses! I summon a force to DESTROY you!"
"Yikes. I channel a force to restore you."
"Gah!"
Make heal golem rit spellcraftable
 

Polare

Count
Alliance Rules
Moderator
Seattle Staff
James Trotta said:
I don't see wand or magic storm damage being useless against undead at all. Obviously a destruction makes it much sweeter but once the destruction lands the celestial caster (golem or no) is probably stronger offensively than the earth caster (though if your team were all golems the earth caster could start freely chucking away his morts and purifies). An earth blade item makes any golem a serious threat as well. And that new elemental burst damage stuff from these new rules can be big enough for undead to feel some pain with or without a destruction applied.
It all depends on what you're playing against. My primary in a golem is 31st level. APL 31 undead basically have the capacity to ignore anything that does less than 100 damage a pop, honestly. 10's just don't do diddly against them.

And as Stephen noted, in a Golem, I actually put out significantly *less* damage... because I'm saving most of it for self-healing. At a fight last weekend where I previously would have thrown probably 70+ wand packets for 10 damage each, I ended up throwing about half and half in terms of damage vs healing uses of them. Had it been against high APL undead, my purpose would have been to stand in the way of their Necro effects for the team, heal myself from damage, and try to land Prisons ... because other than that I'm not doing anything useful against them. Maybe I'd kill some minions with Confines or by swinging my 4's or something too.

I can't speak for everyone... but based on my experience this last weekend my character is significantly better defensively but also less capable offensively when in the Golem body (which is perfect for that character concept, so I'm not knocking it) *especially* against Undead.

-Bryan
 

jpariury

Duke
RiddickDale said:
Once that celestial caster hops into a golem... their evocation changes to much needed self healing.
Polare said:
It all depends on what you're playing against. My primary in a golem is 31st level. APL 31 undead basically have the capacity to ignore anything that does less than 100 damage a pop, honestly. 10's just don't do diddly against them.
To be fair, APL 31 undead generally swing for nasty carriers like Drain and Death, if they swing at all... which the golem'd character is immune to.
 
NH has several big undead that swing silence or Destruction, and one that alternates between the two.

Have one who for plot reasons controls constructs by voice, too, and has done since before the first time a PC in any golem played in NH.
 

Gilwing

Baron
Alliance Logistics
Alavatar said:
Gilwing said:
Make heal golem rit spellcraftable
Heal Golem has changed significantly. It now can create an item with 3 charges in it that each heal 50 points of damage and removes any bad juju (similar to a Purify).
It is considered a times ever item, thus subject to shatter. I stand by my statement... leave it the old way and spellcraftable.
 

Mobius

Squire
¿Can the Ritual Manipulation High Magic be used in concert with the Spell Crafting High Magic? That is, ¿can a Formalist manipulate Spell Crafts? It wouldn't work with all the Manipulations, but it would with the following: Lore Answer, Insert Component, Casters’ Mark, Conservative Casting, Spark of Empowerment, Choose Flaw, Obvious Power, Touch of Empowerment, True Conservation, Alternate Component, True Empowerment.
 
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