Roguey-types and options

[Deadlands of Old]

I have a bit of experience with bows.
Bows & crossbows are dependent upon the aimer's eye, the steady hand, the bow's draw weight & the strength & stability of the shooter (or mechanics in the case of a crossbow).
Strength & stability =/= dexterity.

I'm not disagreeing with the premise that rogues are basically Alliance's ranger, just pointing out that saying a rogue's dexterity should make him a better archer is sort of misplaced. You could say a scout by name of class should make him the better archer.

I as well.

I think I understand what you’re saying, but I also think it’s the old balance of firepower vs. accuracy.

Stability is determined by a lot of things, someone's weight in relation to their strength, muscle stamina, practice moving and not moving, etc.

Try not to think of what I'm saying in strict terms. Clearly, using a bow, any bow, requires a mixture of balance and strength, but strength over one's environment does not always equate to stability. I'm not saying that fighters are not dexterous, or that rogues are not strong. I'm saying one is generally seen as having more sheer, physical power over his/her environment, and one is thought to have more balance in maneuvering his/her body through his/her environment, and also, manipulating objects when weight is not an issue. If weight and not precision is the issue, the fighter might have the advantage.

In terms of archery, whereas the fighter might only be able to put an arrow through a torso with any regularity, the rogue might be able to put it through the throat. But the fighter might have greater brute strength, and thus might be able to pull a 70 lb bow, which can pop steal armor like a balloon. The rogue might have to apply more accuracy and less power to achieve the same level of lethality, by perhaps firing a lightly driven arrow through an eye socket in the helmet.

In the simplest example I can imagine at the moment:

A player in NH, Shane White, can lift up the back of a car.

He hits me really hard with a big rock. I die now.

I cannot lift up the back of a car, but I have decent strength to body weight ratio, so I have decent dexterity.

So I can throw a hatchet into Shane's face…

Not that I would, because who knows? I might need a car lifted off of me someday.

Regarding the "rogues only work well in teams" comment, depends on the rogue, and what working with a team means to you. You could also say rogues are good at exploiting teams. Three fighters, a mage and a templar are trying to kill something for ten minutes and the rogue sneaks up during the commotion and waylays it. I wouldn't necessarily say he was part of the plan, or the team. He could also just be a sort of scavenger off of mayhem.

 

[Gilwing]

Dave and others- People keep saying Dmg and class. Class has nothing to do with it, its the skills. It's backstab that doesn't get the + to bows, not the class. If they purchased profs, they would get it. What a fighter is doing when they drop there weapons and load up on a bow is take them self out of the front line (for the most part). They have made them self a support class, shooting over the heads of there allies (not a bad thing some times) and one less fighter in the thick of things.

We have no less than 3 fighters in SF that use bows often, if not all the time as their preferred method of attack. They pretty much just wreck anything they start shooting at... and that's independently. If they're all together and focus firing, whatever they're aiming at is pink mist.

Two handed damage in a weapon you can keep blocking with when you whip out a short sword? I've seen a pretty hefty "yes please!"

Depends on the situation. I'm not going to assume any thing about SF but, shields cost money and a lot of npc camps don't have many of them (a side from person ones). Shields kill archers. There is one caveat, now that arrows are no longer easier to identify (To me) on might think it's a spell and avoid using there shield.

 

[Rhys]

They're supposed to be a class where you need to catch the other guy in a bad spot. A rogue isn't supposed to get caught in a bad situation.

True...but "isn't supposed to" doesn't prevent it from happening. Sometimes you get caught in a situation where you just get bad luck (ie, walk into the bunch of NPCs just coming into game) and need to do *something* inventive. I'm not saying they need to be uber-buffed or anything - even the options that I think would be tremendously helpful (like some sort of 5-second 'stun' so they could either make their escape or get behind an opponent) doesn't really work within our current ruleset. So, mostly, I was just trying to brainstorm for options for when rogues get caught with their pants down.

If a rogue decides not to buy spells and stun limbs then they just need to be even more careful to catch the other guy and not get caught themselves. That's the rogue's game if they're solo.

True, and I think most rogues understand that - but stuff happens. Ego is a PC's bane, but it's embarrassing if the recommendation is for a 20+ level rogue to either run screaming from a critter s/he encounters on the way to the privy, or to bring a posse to help them go.

 

[Rhys]

Alternately, there really isn't anything wrong with running as a rogue . Its par for the course.

There's nothing wrong with it, as an occasional thing - but if I wanted to run a 5k, I wouldn't do it in chainmail. And would prefer I didn't have someone like Tab chasing me. ::laughs:: Some of the short sprints aren't a problem, but getting caught in the middle of nowhere and having to run full tilt in all your gear can be a pain in the neck.

 

[Vryan]

There's nothing wrong with it, as an occasional thing - but if I wanted to run a 5k, I wouldn't do it in chainmail. And would prefer I didn't have someone like Tab chasing me. ::laughs:: Some of the short sprints aren't a problem, but getting caught in the middle of nowhere and having to run full tilt in all your gear can be a pain in the neck.

Pain in the neck, possibly, but do you know how good it feels afterwards when you realize that you just escaped certain death?

I play a Backstab heavy Scout and most of the fun I have is running from monsters because if I don't I will die. The game, for me, is most fun when I must perform at my best or be killed. I love the exhilaration I get from not knowing how I'm going to escape and the thrill of success when I do. I love the Rogue because of this flaw and requiring real life skill and ingenuity to escape and cheat death. Also, there is nothing more satisfying than successfully out maneuvering your opponent and catching them off guard. I purposefully chose this class to get the most out of my game, and the game I like is a dangerous one.

 

[Deadlands of Old]

Well, you can use gases, which are expensive. You can use PTD disarms, shatters and stun limbs, assuming you bought some combo of those. You can use daggers, arrows or bolts, assuming you have archery and are really quick on the draw. That's about it for the rogues, since pretty much anyone can just swing for base, buy read magic and scroll it up, or use magic items.

I know what you're getting at though, Rhys. I remember npcing NJ, over ten years ago, and I came up on a pretty high level rogue by himself in the woods. I was playing something with a threshold of 2 and I was unaffected by poison, so even though I had under ten body, swung 2's and had no other significant skills, I chased this 20+ level rogue down and dropped him. Took a long time, but he was screwed from the start, and it wasn't for lack of skills, in or out of game.

And to Albert/Vry Young Pup, yeah...but you still picked a scout instead of a rogue, and for good reasons, some of which Rhys is bringing up.

 

[Rhys]

Well, you can use gases, which are expensive. You can use PTD disarms, shatters and stun limbs, assuming you bought some combo of those. You can use daggers, arrows or bolts, assuming you have archery and are really quick on the draw. That's about it for the rogues, since pretty much anyone can just swing for base, buy read magic and scroll it up, or use magic items.

Right. I play an adept, so I've got access to the alchemy, the archery, and almost a full block of earth spells, so I've got options. However, occasionally, I get caught by myself, without a big stock of gasses, and facing things that rip out of all my bindings - which means pulling a weapon and trying to make do with the roguey-side of the class. I just think adepts are all about "fight smarter, not harder", so I was looking for options and ideas. I might not be in the shape to outrun someone like you, or talented enough to outfight someone like Ray, but if I can plan ahead and be prepared, I might still be able to find some sort of way out... just wanted to get some brainstorming going.

 

[Dan Nickname Beshers]

If stuff rips from your binding, hit the confine and run behind them.

 

[jpariury]

To be fair, the OP suggested that fighting the monster from the front shouldn't be a problem:

Hypothetical scenario: Saturday morning, you wake up, garb up, head to breakfast. You're all alone, no other PCs within easy reach, and you come across an appropriate NPC of your level. (As in, something that you can effect that isn't tailored to your weaknesses.) Assume that you've got all your skills/production and you're willing to use them.

A rogue's weakness is fighting something from the front, so this guy should be about as hard for me as an ogre is for a lowbie, right?

 

[RavenSis]

True, and I think most rogues understand that - but stuff happens. Ego is a PC's bane, but it's embarrassing if the recommendation is for a 20+ level rogue to either run screaming from a critter s/he encounters on the way to the privy, or to bring a posse to help them go.

I have Death Spells and still think it's a good idea to have an escort to the little elves' room, or prepare to run like Tab's chasing me if I'm foolish enough to not ask for an escort. There's a reason why Gebous is so darn good at possuming: we do it a lot.

Even in groups, sometimes you just have to run. A good example of that was Rupert and Alyssa encountering a black bug on the path (channeling silence). A 12th level fighter and a 12th level earth scholar with archery, used to running with and covering each other (and very much used to fighting bugs), got their butts handed to them by a single bug. Sometimes, you just have to run and then laugh at yourself later.

 

[Dom]

To me, running away when the odds are against you, just seems like part of being a rogue and something that rogues should have to deal with. It's the whole "glass cannon" concept. There are plenty of ways to prepare yourself for these situations and though your class may make it more difficult to use these skills, you are not denied them. If you choose to min/max for damage then you need to be prepared to run. If a wide receiver cannot catch the ball, they don't change the rules so that it's easier for him. This is more or less a sport as it requires physical activity, talent and strategy to be good. Find your position on the field and master it IMO.

 

[Dan Nickname Beshers]

Indeed. By resigning themselves to running from fights a fighter might win, a rogue buys the chance to run from certain death a fighter can't escape.

 

[Rhys]

If stuff rips from your binding, hit the confine and run behind them.

::nods:: And that's certainly an option - but that doesn't leave a whole lot of time, at the rate some people speed through a rip-out count. One, maybe 2 shots at best. In that case, what's people's opinions - aim for an assassinate/terminate as you go past, or try to get off a waylay (since the target is semi-incapacitated) and hope they're affected by it (assuming it's not something that you know is outright unaffected, such as undead)?

 

[Rhys]

To be fair, the OP suggested that fighting the monster from the front shouldn't be a problem:

Not that it shouldn't be a problem - a one-on-one fight for a rogue, against an aggressive target that knows you're there, puts the odds distinctly against a rogue. So, unless they've got a distinct OOG advantage over the NPC in terms of speed/fighting ability, the rogue's looking at a VERY bad start to his/her day.

But rogues are always portrayed as wily and cunning, cheating the odds to be victorious - which means having a repertoire of sneaky tricks up their sleeves. Some of them aren't appropriate for the situation I described (such as traps). So, I was just interested in what suggestions people had other than "trade in your boots for running shoes" - not because I don't think rogues should run away from some situations. I just don't think that running away should be the rogue's first (and best) option.

 

[Avaran]

To be fair, the OP suggested that fighting the monster from the front shouldn't be a problem:

Not that it shouldn't be a problem - a one-on-one fight for a rogue, against an aggressive target that knows you're there, puts the odds distinctly against a rogue. So, unless they've got a distinct OOG advantage over the NPC in terms of speed/fighting ability, the rogue's looking at a VERY bad start to his/her day.

But rogues are always portrayed as wily and cunning, cheating the odds to be victorious - which means having a repertoire of sneaky tricks up their sleeves. Some of them aren't appropriate for the situation I described (such as traps). So, I was just interested in what suggestions people had other than "trade in your boots for running shoes" - not because I don't think rogues should run away from some situations. I just don't think that running away should be the rogue's first (and best) option.

What good is a Fighter if a Rogue can stand toe-to-toe?

Classes have weaknesses built in on purpose.

One could say that, over time, some of those weaknesses have gotten a lot less meaningful, but that's not really a thing for this thread. :ninja:

 

[James Trotta]

As you say, the rogue needs different tools for different situations. Gasses work very well in certain situations but not at all in others. Typically the rogue's go-to choice when possible. I would imagine that most baddies bugging you at breakfast are vulnerable to gasses. Next you're left with spells or prepare to dies or archery. I personally prefer spells. It's worth noting that a rogue can pick up a couple of profs as well.

To be fair, the OP suggested that fighting the monster from the front shouldn't be a problem:

Not that it shouldn't be a problem - a one-on-one fight for a rogue, against an aggressive target that knows you're there, puts the odds distinctly against a rogue. So, unless they've got a distinct OOG advantage over the NPC in terms of speed/fighting ability, the rogue's looking at a VERY bad start to his/her day.

But rogues are always portrayed as wily and cunning, cheating the odds to be victorious - which means having a repertoire of sneaky tricks up their sleeves. Some of them aren't appropriate for the situation I described (such as traps). So, I was just interested in what suggestions people had other than "trade in your boots for running shoes" - not because I don't think rogues should run away from some situations. I just don't think that running away should be the rogue's first (and best) option.

 

[Wraith]

But rogues are always portrayed as wily and cunning, cheating the odds to be victorious - which means having a repertoire of sneaky tricks up their sleeves. Some of them aren't appropriate for the situation I described (such as traps).

I think you're projecting a lot of character traits here onto a mechanical class that has nothing to do with them. As our class system is fluid, a lot of characters with wildly divergent concepts will be classed as 'Rogues' for game purposes. Just from the ones I personally interact with (or play), it runs the gamut from trapsmiths, to swashbucklers, to hard-bitten soldiers whoose players don't mind the damage output changes and like the defensive skills.

That said, if the scaling's not brutally against you, any class should be able to go toe to toe with a single enemy just based on how many single-strike incapacitating effects we have available. Add in the magic item glut, and it becomes even more likely.

What good is a Fighter if a Rogue can stand toe-to-toe?

Classes have weaknesses built in on purpose.

One could say that, over time, some of those weaknesses have gotten a lot less meaningful, but that's not really a thing for this thread. :ninja:

That's pretty much the point, here. A Rogue who spreads out their build can get easy access to scrolls, alchemy, and prepare to die skills without compromising their effectiveness, scaling-wise. Combine this with the OOG skills to out-fight the NPCs, and you have a really effective toe-to-toe fighter with a large bag of tricks. Magic items just make it easier to make fighters redundant, especially DAs and Arcane Armor.

 

[Rhys]

I think you're projecting a lot of character traits here onto a mechanical class that has nothing to do with them. As our class system is fluid, a lot of characters with wildly divergent concepts will be classed as 'Rogues' for game purposes. Just from the ones I personally interact with (or play), it runs the gamut from trapsmiths, to swashbucklers, to hard-bitten soldiers whoose players don't mind the damage output changes and like the defensive skills.

Maybe... but it's still a class where you need to use tricks and tools and wit more than brute strength. They've got low damage output from the front (barring ranged weapons), midrange armor, and middling body. It's not as noticeable at the lower levels, but at the higher levels, there's a distinct disadvantage if you don't fight smart. You can PC a fighter that's a wily swashbuckler or a dumb meat-shield with relatively equal success, because the mechanics are there. The mechanics aren't really there for someone to play a rogue that doesn't have some level of cunning and trickery.

That said, if the scaling's not brutally against you, any class should be able to go toe to toe with a single enemy just based on how many single-strike incapacitating effects we have available.

The idea that any class should be able to have a 1-on-1 showdown seems to be unpopular around here. Personally, I agree with that concept - I was just trying to brainstorm for ideas on what would be the best/most efficient/most effective ways of that.

Add in the magic item glut, and it becomes even more likely.

Eh, yes and no. The problem with that is the magic item glut doesn't rain on all characters equally. I know folks who couldn't possibly blow through all of their times per day items in one day if they tried, while other folks are scrabbling to make due with 1-2 activates.

That's pretty much the point, here. A Rogue who spreads out their build can get easy access to scrolls, alchemy, and prepare to die skills without compromising their effectiveness, scaling-wise. Combine this with the OOG skills to out-fight the NPCs, and you have a really effective toe-to-toe fighter with a large bag of tricks.

Maybe I just run up against the wrong NPCs then, because the ones that I can reliably affect and can outfight typically are a lot lower level than I - and burning through consumables like scrolls and alchemy (or even arrows) seems like a losing proposition when dealing with critters that carry only a couple of silver. I'll admit that I've got it easier as an adept - between an almost 4-column, a shield, and a reasonable amount of skill, I can stay alive... but killing things (even with teammates) is slow-going at best. If I were a pure rogue, I'd probably be worse off - and so I was looking for ideas from folks who've made it work.

Magic items just make it easier to make fighters redundant, especially DAs and Arcane Armor.

I'm not so sure about that. A DA in my hands actually makes me vaguely useful in combat ("Hurray, I can actually affect this guy!"), but I don't see how it could make a fighter redundant. Pound-for-pound, fighters can dish out (and take) far more damage than any other class. I've seen more fighters with a handful of healing and protective items (arguably making caster redundant) than I have seen the other way around.

 

[Dan Nickname Beshers]

Ideological plug:

That comment about fighters with items making caster redundant rings a lot truer for me than DA phasing out fighter. This is because all spells can be classified as one of 5 types: damage, healing, defenses, KOs and other/fluff. Other/fluff and damage are lame ducks, since there is a surplus of damage and the existing debuffs or trickery spells rarely outperform KOs. Since KOs are by far the most effective offense, defensive options that prevent KOs or damage and healing for when you run short on defenses are the only options that suit a streamlined combat strategy. Thus confine, prison, (drain shh!), death, paralysis, cure (crit or mort), spell shield, magic armor, disple, purify and life are far and away the most commonly made activatable magic items. This is because, even for their level, these are the best spells. Even on that list, paralysis is less common since so many things are outright immune: its major advantage is that it belongs to a lesser used effect group and is therefor less defended against.

Same rules apply to magic augmentation, actually, with an emphasis on defensive or reactive bang-for-your-buck. Thus magic Purify or Dispel is almost a given, Prison being strong offensively and defensively also. No one takes magic wizard lock or even dragon's breath; at least no one that knows what they're doing.

Reduce the number and availability of KO effects and you increase the benefit of damage and other spells which may not grant a kill, but do make one easier.

 

[Wraith]

In my experience, the +3 DA on a caster (Which is roughly equivalent to 120 build worth of critical attacks and weapon profs for a scholar) is going to out-work activates on a fighter up until you reach the high levels of scaling where the kill-box strategy becomes a matter of who runs out of cloaks and dodges for the incapacitating effects first. Of course, once you've reached that point, fighters are only as good as their own stack of cloaks and dodges.