Slays and Assassinates

Gilwing

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So I noticed that some people have an issue with slays and assassinates, feeling that they are a waist because they will just be parried etc. Am I wrong to think that if more people took these skills then less would be avoided? More would stick? My way of thinking is that you have to get past those defenses and once they are gone your will stick. Seeing how you have limited resources wouldn't you want others to do the same as you in the hopes that you can get past said defense? Not only would those defenses get removed to have PTD skills stick but now instead of them parrying your normal weapons and phasing your spells, they are taking it because they don't have any left.

I remember one event at HQ when Tyson came out during the Halloween event as a BBG. We got him all by him self and we went PTD crazy. One skill after another, passing a magic sword around, till guess what, no more ways to avoid our skills. Have a good night. It was a great way to take a big baddie out using team work.
 
Gilwing said:
So I noticed that some people have an issue with slays and assassinates, feeling that they are a waist because they will just be parried etc. Am I wrong to think that if more people took these skills then less would be avoided? More would stick? My way of thinking is that you have to get past those defenses and once they are gone your will stick. Seeing how you have limited resources wouldn't you want others to do the same as you in the hopes that you can get past said defense? Not only would those defenses get removed to have PTD skills stick but now instead of them parrying your normal weapons and phasing your spells, they are taking it because they don't have any left.

I remember one event at HQ when Tyson came out during the Halloween event as a BBG. We got him all by him self and we went PTD crazy. One skill after another, passing a magic sword around, till guess what, no more ways to avoid our skills. Have a good night. It was a great way to take a big baddie out using team work.

I agree. It seems that you tend to need 4-5 (or in BBG, much more) to get them to take.
 
But is that a bad thing? I don't think it is.
 
Part of the problem here is that instant takeouts make for lame fights, especially vs BBGs. If higher end skills didn't all rely on instant takeout, I bet we'd see more stick. Another issue is target selection: dumping big skills into things that you know will defend against them is kinda self-defeating.
 
Dalam4r said:
Part of the problem here is that instant takeouts make for lame fights, especially vs BBGs. If higher end skills didn't all rely on instant takeout, I bet we'd see more stick. Another issue is target selection: dumping big skills into things that you know will defend against them is kinda self-defeating.

It makes for a lame fight in your eyes. It makes for a great story in mine.

I dump big skills into things with the help of others doing the same thing. That works in my book.

To me its self-defeating to not throw those spells because you assume that it will just get shrugged off. If every one did that, they will just start using there phases on other stuff. Then people will complain about that too.
 
I think a chunk of the dislike for the PTD skills (especially Slay) as well as Assassinate and Terminate is how much less beneficial they are when compared to other limited use ways of obtaining similar results, i.e. spells and alchemy, and particularly magic items.

Although High Magic has mad this less true, the majority of scholars are going to be buying spells a majority of the time, because that's really their best option, and it's not that close. Yes, formal magic is now more attractive that it has been in the past, but in terms of raw output it's much more beneficial to gain an extra 1-9 than the build (almost) equivalent 6 formal ranks. For the martial classes, that's less true. With the the option for passive damage increases always on the table, the benefit of exceptional offensive options in limited availability is questionable over the option for higher basic damage and an improved rate of defensive skill gain. For scholars, defensive vs. offensive is a daily decision made every logistics. For a rogue or fighter, it requires a catalyst ritual to change. What's even worse is that choosing to grab PTDs (or the Rogue equivalents) really requires an "all in" decision: having just a few is definitely worse than having a lot or having none.

This is compounded in the case of the cross classes. For a scout, adept or templar build choices are even more important because everything costs more, and you have less of everything. If you're 25th level and gaining ~1 build per weekend event, do you prefer to put your next 10 build into 100 points of damage across 2 slays, or an extra disarm, magic armor, bind, shun and spell shield, with the opportunity to tailor those spells to your needs every day? If it's going to take you 41 build to get your next dodge, how much damage does an assassinate need to do to make it worthwhile? Slay and assassinate are especially bad here, since they only function at their highest potential when bought in bulk, something that is deeply difficult to do when your entire character concept involves spending 40-60% of your build on things that have nothing to do with your slay and assassinate damage. If the two skills stacked with each other, they might be cost effective to scouts, but even then they would be among the least effective options available to you.

That's because they're weapon blows and are therefore subject to blocking, parrying, damage type immunity, and not being magical. Let me explain: I play a campaign villain, a vampire, for NH. He's a fighter and has over 500 body points. He has very large numbers of defensive options, which can be sorted into three categories: physical defensive, magical defensive, anything defensive. Since his body point pool is very high and plentiful necromantic healing is available to him, damaging effects are of secondary concern to effects which remove skills. In order to be taken down, all phases and dodges must be used up (anything defensives), all self-restorative such as drain options must be eliminated (anything defensives), all cloaks versus one effect group able to incapacitate him must be used up (also anything defensives), and a delivery method for landing the decisive effect must be cleared, i.e. all of physical or magical defensives must be expended. If the decisive blow comes from a physical attack, magical attacks that only used up a magical defense were effectively wasted, and the reverse is also true. Because martial skill attacks are limited to disarm (minimally effective), shatter (ineffective), stun limb (modestly effective in bulk), damage skills (as mentioned, typically ineffective) and straight to dead skills (highly effective), only eviscerate and terminate are worthwhile uses of those physical defensives, and a large number of attacks is needed to burn through them all. Magical delivery offers more options that need to be defended against, both in variety of effects and in chances to deliver them, because a scholar or even cross-class caster will have far more options for spells to through than a similarly leveled fighter or rogue has skills and because you can make times per day magic items for spells.

I cannot stress this point enough: one of the biggest reasons that weapon attack skills are not highly valued is because anything they can do ritual magic allows anyone to do build free. If you know either you or your buddy is going to be able to throw death/prison/purify/confine/sleep/whatever enough to take care of your offensive needs, it is wasteful to spend your build on offense. You skip the slay, because that means your next parry is coming that much sooner. You get spells instead of assassinate, because healing is more useful than damage. You pass over eviscerate for herbal lore, because you can stockpile laugh gasses for when you need them, but if eviscerate gets magic armored, it's gone for the day.
 
Slays and assassinates are obsolete skills in the hands of PCs, in my book. They are great for NPC who can dump their load out and respawn as something else later but they are almost always defended against.

If you are swinging for a reasonably high amount of damage with every swing, a talented boffer fighter can tool someone apart quickly, tearing through body points while their opponent saves their defenses for takeout moves. Alliance being such a high combat game, means most of the people who play stick jocks are already good or will be if they want their characters to last. Opponents will often take a disarm or even a stun limb, because it doesn't take them out of the fight, plus they are unique effects, not just more damage. Attacks that just do more damage and most of the time it's enough to drop a PC with a swing seem like a waste, compared to the other cool skills and MORE PROFS! A friend of mine only buys Profs, parrys, and ripostes and he is terrifying on the battlefield.
 
I enjoy my two slays and my one assassinate. I don't always use them... in fact, I often don't. But I never feel like they were a waste of build. As a high level templar, having access to more tools and tricks is pretty much what makes me able to be effective on the field.

Incidentally, I've also found that when I *do* bust out my slays and assassinate, they're much more likely to land, probably because they're lower damage than some of the fighters.
 
If they're seen as progress in taking out the BBG or monster, then they're probably viewed as useful. If they're seen as "Just got blocked and didn't take him down," then they're going to be viewed as useless. Usefulness is in the eye of the player dependant on attitude.

It's an arms race: the PCs get bigger and have access to more spells and skills, so the NPCs have to have more defensives (and vice-versa!) to make for fights that last more than a minute. Epic fights don't often contain the phrase "And my first Slay took him down." Unless you got to the fight late and all your buddies had already been fighting him.
 
As a high level fighter, I have found that a majority of the time my slays and eviscerates land. This is probably in part due to the way these skills are expended. Usually, they end up either the last resort out of a tough situation, or against a BBG. When the 'against a BBG' occurs, they are dumped at the appropriate time - either similar to Gilwing's description, or when other PCs expend the majority of BBG defenses. After that has occured, I usually expend all of those skills into the BBG. Its easy to explain as the character I play (If I'm going to dump 1, I'm dumping them all), and I've also never felt like they were a waste of build, or an obsolete skill set.

2 cents,
Ali
 
I've seen slays be most effective when paired with Destruction, and extremely effective against an undead foe when swung with an earth carrier. Your basic 30 point Slay becomes 120 points of damage in that case (30 doubled for Earth carrier = 60, then again double for Destruction effect =120). A 50 slay becomes 200, a 70 becomes 280, and a 90 becomes 360. Also keep in mind that the higher damage can also be called more times. So the max damage if they all stick is 120, 400, 840, and 1,440 respectively. This is one of the mechanics in the game that I think is specifically designed with the team aspect in mind. Either pair a fighter with an earth caster or be a high level earth templar to pull this off on a regular basis.
 
Slays and Assassinates tend to land if you've got a binding buddy. I'd rather see eviscerate go away to encourage pretty much this exact type of teamwork.
 
As my former fighter I took all the PTD skills. It allowed me to be great on modules where I think I lot of fighter/Rogue skills shine in combat a little more. In big wave battles I would imagine the BBG is statted to take on a bigger group of players so they would need to up their defense abilities but again that's where you have friends who would bind the villian as he rips from the binding spells as you complete your attack run.

I'm also of the mind that not all skills were intended to just take out the BBG give the crunchies some Slay loving and a nice Terminate back massage.
 
Toddo said:
Slays and Assassinates tend to land if you've got a binding buddy. I'd rather see eviscerate go away to encourage pretty much this exact type of teamwork.

I see more phases/cloaks than any other form of NPC defense, so effective binding is Confine and Web, the latter of which is usually sacrificed for Spell Shields. Pin stops nothing, Bind only stops Parry. So while it's true that a binding buddy makes PTD abilities way more useful, that only matters if you actually stick one.

A good reason for C-Casters to stock up on Web scrolls, though.
 
I tend to see more Resist Magics than anything else, so I'll chalk that up to regional differences. But every phase used on a web is one that's not phasing a terminate or disarm.
 
Toddo said:
I tend to see more Resist Magics than anything else, so I'll chalk that up to regional differences. But every phase used on a web is one that's not phasing a terminate or disarm.

Take the web, phase the follow up, rip free.
 
Draven said:
Toddo said:
Slays and Assassinates tend to land if you've got a binding buddy. I'd rather see eviscerate go away to encourage pretty much this exact type of teamwork.

I see more phases/cloaks than any other form of NPC defense, so effective binding is Confine and Web, the latter of which is usually sacrificed for Spell Shields. Pin stops nothing, Bind only stops Parry. So while it's true that a binding buddy makes PTD abilities way more useful, that only matters if you actually stick one.

A good reason for C-Casters to stock up on Web scrolls, though.

This is really more of a factor of your plot team and the person NPCing the monster.

Cards can very easily be re-written to have resists or guards, or to just rip from all binding. As a player, the second I hear "X Guard" my eyes light up... because that means I just have to wear the monster down. And when I hear "I rip free 1..." I rev up the chainsaw.
 
In my experience, there are two main reasons that PC slays and assassinates don't land very often.

1) PCs simply forget to use them -> These are 1/day abilities that are not defenses that tend to be on a character card that relies on "always on" abilities. A lot of PCs just forget to use them. Casters are always thinking about the next spell, but fighters/rogues are rarely considering exactly when would be best to use that assassinate / slay. Often, I have noticed, PCs only remember the abilities when NPCs start using them and those are the NPCs most likely to have defenses against them.

2) NPC defenses are 1/life not 1/day -> The dirty truth about this game is that NPCs essentially operate under an encounter-based skill system while PCs operate under a daily-based skill system. My NPC card may say 1 parry / day, but I know that if I use a parry this life, I get it back next life, so I might as well go to town with my skills. It is a lot harder to land a skill when the NPC has absolutely no reason to save his defenses. Combine that with what I mentioned above (PCs tend to forget about these type of skills until they see NPCs using them) and a lot of PTDs / rogue skills get parried / dodged / riposted.

-MS
 
mikestrauss said:
2) NPC defenses are 1/life not 1/day -> The dirty truth about this game is that NPCs essentially operate under an encounter-based skill system while PCs operate under a daily-based skill system. My NPC card may say 1 parry / day, but I know that if I use a parry this life, I get it back next life, so I might as well go to town [big][/big]with my skills. It is a lot harder to land a skill when the NPC has absolutely no reason to save his defenses. Combine that with what I mentioned above (PCs tend to forget about these type of skills until they see NPCs using them) and a lot of PTDs / rogue skills get parried / dodged / riposted.

-MS

On.

The.

Head.

If you give an NPC a card and tell him he has to make that card last 6 hours, he'd probably play it a lot more conservatively than if you told him he had to make it last three respawns.
 
I find Slays and Assassinates to be very useful in my time. Usually they are useful when paired with team work of bindo storm and landing a bunch of them down. Our game is one of momentum and attrition at times. If you can end a fight in a overwhelming wave of skills before it gets out of hand it can be epic and satisfying all around. I have seen this work many times.
Also as a plot member in chicago we have been attempting to make Eviscerates and terminates useful but not ruin fights by instead of stating stacks of defenses we use the Alternate effect, Appears to harm me greatly mechanic. Depending on the size of the fight, the toughness of the baddy, the damage usually works out to be between 10% and 25% of a BBGs body(Which can be anywhere between 250, to 2000 body), which still is super useful and is better then hearing parry to every single one of a person's weapon skills.
 
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